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[RyRy]

I missed the race and only just got to watch it, my review:

I throughally enjoyed this weekend at Istanbul.
McLaren have really upped the game and have shown that they are serious and are on the same pace/level as Red Bull, Hamilton sat with Webber for ages even though he was in the Dirty air of the RB, which is very dirty (even more so than McLarens)

This weekend has shown that really it looks like a 4(driver) horse race and you can see quite a spesific order now, with the Ferrari's now slower than the Mercedes and even Kubica getting more performance from his car than Ferrari.
Webber | Vettel
Hamilton | Button
Schumacher
Rosberg
Kubica
Alonso | Massa

Now, lets look at the catastrophic collision between Vettel and Webber. In my views from initially seeing it I thought it was Vettels fault.
I looked at it several times and noticed that webber squeezed vettel to the left just before, then Vettel had got in front and 'expected' webber to release and let him through but Webber was stubborn and didn't move, they (webber more so) should of been moving to the right (like vettel did) but webber didn't.

The blame lies with both really, however I would be more inclined after the race once i knew that Webber was on Fuel Saving mode, that it is more webbers fault than Vettel as Vettel had enough fuel left to get him to the end at race pace.

Now to the little fight a few laps later between Hamitlon and Button, BOTH drivers had been radioed and told to switch to saveing fuel, button didn't switch until a lap later which is the only reason he overtook Hamilton, obviously hamilton would be 'suprised' and decided to fight back as several of the team (including hamilton) and spectators (myself, friends) all understood that the comment radio'd to both drivers meant that they would both save fuel and stay in same order.
If you look after lewis re-overtook button that on turn 5 he switched to fuel saving mode and then dropped back a long way as he had now to save even more fuel, more than he would of been originally.



@ Fact Man
- Both McLaren drivers were on low fuel and would not of finished at race pace.
- Only webber was on 'low fuel' as he was the only one who was having to push extra hard and he would of only needed to save fuel for 1 or maybe 2 laps and would then of been able to race at race pace again for the rest.

@ RA Dunk
- They were told just after there pit stop that they were burning to much fuel and would need to try and save fuel but none of them really saved any as they were so close to the red bulls and even without the red bulls going off, they would of had to go into serious fuel saving mode which would of kept them 3rd, 4th (unless they had managed to overtake which was unlikely)

[kerc]

Vettel tried to overtake in Hamilton-style. Silly rabbit, you can't do that! Fail.

[f1usa]

I have to say, I'm pretty close to taking Vettel off the list in my signature of favourite drivers that I've had since 2008. I still think he's a huge talent (that much is obvious), but I'm growing to like his attitude less and less by the race. I have a horrible nagging feeling that he has gradually developed an arrogance (as opposed to his former confidence) as time has gone on, and an unwillingness to accept his own failings except for PR purposes (i.e. apologising to his team but I don't think really being sincere). That crash was absolutely his fault, I really can't see any argument to the contrary regardless of the cr*p that seems to have begun to come from the team after the race, and I feel really sorry for Webber.

I also am beginning to think a comment that was made on the F1 forum on BBC after the race may just be relevant. Someone asked the question to Coulthard, Brundle, jordan et al; 'Can Vettel actually overtake anyone without crashing?'. I thought about it for a minute and realised that whilst not necessarily true, the person that posed the question had a real point - this isn't the first person's race that he's ruined in this way...

Thoughts people?

IMO, Vettel is not the driver to build your future around if your goal is winning both championships. Red Bull should consider teaming Kimi with Webber in 2011 and deal this JPM clone to Ferrari.

[The Ram]

Why would they get rid of their investment(Vettel)? Vettel is the reason why they told mark to turn down his engine! They wanted Vettel to win! It's a conspiracy!

[Datsun]

Sebastian Vettel – DNF: “If you watch it on the TV, you can see what happened. I’m not in the happiest of moods. I was on the inside going into the corner. I was there, I was ahead and focusing on the braking point and then we touched. Mark’s car hit my rear right wheel and I went off – there’s not much more to say.

What a fat ladies blouse.

[bud]

Marks car hit my rear??? sorry your rear hit Marks car! you moved he did not.

I'm not really liking the tone coming from the team either, its clear they blame Webber for the incident. They are also saying Mark was on a fuel saving mode and Seb had one more lap until he had to thus the speed difference on the straights.

[Fact Man]

I missed the race and only just got to watch it, my review:

I throughally enjoyed this weekend at Istanbul.
McLaren have really upped the game and have shown that they are serious and are on the same pace/level as Red Bull, Hamilton sat with Webber for ages even though he was in the Dirty air of the RB, which is very dirty (even more so than McLarens)

This weekend has shown that really it looks like a 4(driver) horse race and you can see quite a spesific order now, with the Ferrari's now slower than the Mercedes and even Kubica getting more performance from his car than Ferrari.
Webber | Vettel
Hamilton | Button
Schumacher
Rosberg
Kubica
Alonso | Massa

Now, lets look at the catastrophic collision between Vettel and Webber. In my views from initially seeing it I thought it was Vettels fault.
I looked at it several times and noticed that webber squeezed vettel to the left just before, then Vettel had got in front and 'expected' webber to release and let him through but Webber was stubborn and didn't move, they (webber more so) should of been moving to the right (like vettel did) but webber didn't.

The blame lies with both really, however I would be more inclined after the race once i knew that Webber was on Fuel Saving mode, that it is more webbers fault than Vettel as Vettel had enough fuel left to get him to the end at race pace.

Now to the little fight a few laps later between Hamitlon and Button, BOTH drivers had been radioed and told to switch to saveing fuel, button didn't switch until a lap later which is the only reason he overtook Hamilton, obviously hamilton would be 'suprised' and decided to fight back as several of the team (including hamilton) and spectators (myself, friends) all understood that the comment radio'd to both drivers meant that they would both save fuel and stay in same order.
If you look after lewis re-overtook button that on turn 5 he switched to fuel saving mode and then dropped back a long way as he had now to save even more fuel, more than he would of been originally.



@ Fact Man
- Both McLaren drivers were on low fuel and would not of finished at race pace.
- Only webber was on 'low fuel' as he was the only one who was having to push extra hard and he would of only needed to save fuel for 1 or maybe 2 laps and would then of been able to race at race pace again for the rest.

@ RA Dunk
- They were told just after there pit stop that they were burning to much fuel and would need to try and save fuel but none of them really saved any as they were so close to the red bulls and even without the red bulls going off, they would of had to go into serious fuel saving mode which would of kept them 3rd, 4th (unless they had managed to overtake which was unlikely)

I like your analysis, however, there is some contradiction in the events you stated.
- Both McL drivers were in fuel saving mode and only Webber from RB.
- This a problem since Webber/Vettel/Hamilton/Button were all close but only Webber/Hamilton/Button were told to conserve fuel. What about Vettel? How come he didn't need to save fuel if Button needed to do so yet he was behind Vettel?
- Also, nothing says that Button had to obey the order. It is up to the driver to decide what to do in such a situation. Kind of like when they are told to watch for their tires. It's the driver's choice to do what he thinks is best at the end. It's risky but if he's willing to take that risk that's his decision.

In my opinion, there were some team orders. Hamilton should not have been told that "both" drivers are in fuel saving mode. What is the need to tell Hamilton about that. Why didn't RB tell Vettel about Webber's fuel situation? I think Button was frustrated at the team and that's why he pulled that move on Hamilton. But unfortunately he had to give it up.

But what do I know, I talk nonsense

[The Ram]

Sebastian Vettel – DNF: “If you watch it on the TV, you can see what happened. I’m not in the happiest of moods. I was on the inside going into the corner. I was there, I was ahead and focusing on the braking point and then we touched. Mark’s car hit my rear right wheel and I went off – there’s not much more to say.

What a fat ladies blouse.

This is yet another verification for when I said Vettel is a damn liar in the Vettel thread. He is really living up to it.

[Kash]

Sebastian Vettel – DNF: “If you watch it on the TV, you can see what happened. I’m not in the happiest of moods. I was on the inside going into the corner. I was there, I was ahead and focusing on the braking point and then we touched. Mark’s car hit my rear right wheel and I went off – there’s not much more to say.

Why u arrogant little rat Vettel...to think that he can have his way always...trying to bully Webber and take the lead. He must be good as a driver but Webber has clearly shown that he is no less in the last few outings both in qualifying and in the race. Clearly RBR is showing favouritism towards Vettel....to think that Webber was asked to save fuel on the lap where Vettel is charging like hell to overtake and to take the lead....what a load of crap if they say that thats not putting Webber at a disadvantage. It wasn't as if Webber would have run out of fuel on that lap itself. He should have been given the freedom to defend his position without being asked to save fuel...defend ur position first and then save fuel later as the Mclarens did...and then Vettel wouldn't have been anywhere close to him to be able to overtake in the first place. Why ask Webber to take it easy and then let Vettel do whatever he wants....just because he had one extra lap worth doesn't mean s*** in F1 and Webber had clearly shown demonstrated that having led for the whole race although Hamilton was much quicker with top speeds in the straights. Vettel needs to be slammed by both the public and the team and should be shown his proper place. If the team wanted a 1-2 finish then they should have advised both drivers of the strategy at the same time and that Webber should have been 1st and Vettel 2nd. RBR ... SHAME ON U FOR BEING SUCH HYPOCRITES AND SHOWING FAVOURITISM. And Vettel, although u are good and i dont have anything against u personally....hell i even like u and think that u are the next big thing....but mate u need to take a hard look at urself and not blame others all the time. if Mark didnt leave his racing line for u....then its his choice....it was his racing line and u cant just expect others to just give in to ur aggresive behaviour....and plus HE WAS ASKED TO SAVE FUEL by the team. It seems the other way around when Vettel did the global mental sign and that he needs to go see a mental doctor himself. Good that u crashed and didnt get any points and that Mark is leading way up in front. I hope Christian Horner takes the appropriate measures and not show favouritism. I am a die hard Ferrari fan and was moving towards liking Red Bull equally now but with these sort of things happening in their team.... i am not too sure anymore. Just because Mark Webber is a gentleman doesn't mean that the team is allowed to take undue advantage. He has shown that he is not to be taken lightly and we are behind u 100% all the way...it was Vettel's fault all the way and the teams fault equally to put u on the backfoot. I hope u win the championship this year Mark....cheers mate.

[The Oz]

Webber should f*** off. Honestly was a stupid move. Horner could see there was gunna be an acident and he said MOVE as in move over a little bit because there is gunna be an acident.

Also it seems the Red Bull is slightly quicker than the McLaren while Mercedes seems like the 3rd best team now

It looks as though he didn't leave Sebastian enough space. It was very clear he (Vettel) was by his side and in front. But I still have to speak with both of them

Seems like Red Bull think Webber is in the wrong

[Datsun]

Webber should f*** off. Honestly was a stupid move. Horner could see there was gunna be an acident and he said MOVE as in move over a little bit because there is gunna be an acident.

Horner said "MOVE" because he knows Vettel is an acident waiting to happen whenever he tries to overtake.

It's the second time Vettel has taken Webber off, as you probably know.

[myownalias]

Bottom line is: Vettel turned right towards Webber when he had plenty of room to make the pass; the replays clearly show that. Most of the drivers that the media have talked to think it was squarely Vettel's fault; only Red Bull and Eddie Jordan blamed Webber for not moving over when Vettel tried to squeeze him wide on turn 12. Vettel would have been past Webber by turn 12 if he simply held his line into the left hander. Ultimately Vettel paid the price for his impetuousness, no-one to blame but himself!

[racechick]

Horner said "Webber put Vettel on the dirty side of the track"

No he didnt, Vetel put himself on the dirty side of the track, Mark held his line.

I like Whitmarsh's comments best-I wouldnt be cuddling a driver after he'd just done that.

And Lewis had a pretty good view of the action-he saw it ws Vettel.

[Juliet P]

Sebastian Vettel – DNF: “If you watch it on the TV, you can see what happened. I’m not in the happiest of moods. I was on the inside going into the corner. I was there, I was ahead and focusing on the braking point and then we touched. Mark’s car hit my rear right wheel and I went off – there’s not much more to say.

Why u arrogant little rat Vettel...to think that he can have his way always...trying to bully Webber and take the lead. He must be good as a driver but Webber has clearly shown that he is no less in the last few outings both in qualifying and in the race. Clearly RBR is showing favouritism towards Vettel....to think that Webber was asked to save fuel on the lap where Vettel is charging like hell to overtake and to take the lead....what a load of crap if they say that thats not putting Webber at a disadvantage. It wasn't as if Webber would have run out of fuel on that lap itself. He should have been given the freedom to defend his position without being asked to save fuel...defend ur position first and then save fuel later as the Mclarens did...and then Vettel wouldn't have been anywhere close to him to be able to overtake in the first place. Why ask Webber to take it easy and then let Vettel do whatever he wants....just because he had one extra lap worth doesn't mean s*** in F1 and Webber had clearly shown demonstrated that having led for the whole race although Hamilton was much quicker with top speeds in the straights. Vettel needs to be slammed by both the public and the team and should be shown his proper place. If the team wanted a 1-2 finish then they should have advised both drivers of the strategy at the same time and that Webber should have been 1st and Vettel 2nd. RBR ... SHAME ON U FOR BEING SUCH HYPOCRITES AND SHOWING FAVOURITISM. And Vettel, although u are good and i dont have anything against u personally....hell i even like u and think that u are the next big thing....but mate u need to take a hard look at urself and not blame others all the time. if Mark didnt leave his racing line for u....then its his choice....it was his racing line and u cant just expect others to just give in to ur aggresive behaviour....and plus HE WAS ASKED TO SAVE FUEL by the team. It seems the other way around when Vettel did the global mental sign and that he needs to go see a mental doctor himself. Good that u crashed and didnt get any points and that Mark is leading way up in front. I hope Christian Horner takes the appropriate measures and not show favouritism. I am a die hard Ferrari fan and was moving towards liking Red Bull equally now but with these sort of things happening in their team.... i am not too sure anymore. Just because Mark Webber is a gentleman doesn't mean that the team is allowed to take undue advantage. He has shown that he is not to be taken lightly and we are behind u 100% all the way...it was Vettel's fault all the way and the teams fault equally to put u on the backfoot. I hope u win the championship this year Mark....cheers mate.

Two things:

1) Sentences and paragraphs are wonderful inventions designed to make text easier to read - kindly use them.

2) Neither Mark Webber nor Seb Vettel actually read this forum, so directing your comments directly at them is pointless, and also kind of weird...

[racechick]

I like your analysis, however, there is some contradiction in the events you stated.
- Both McL drivers were in fuel saving mode and only Webber from RB.
- This a problem since Webber/Vettel/Hamilton/Button were all close but only Webber/Hamilton/Button were told to conserve fuel. What about Vettel? How come he didn't need to save fuel if Button needed to do so yet he was behind Vettel?
- Also, nothing says that Button had to obey the order. It is up to the driver to decide what to do in such a situation. Kind of like when they are told to watch for their tires. It's the driver's choice to do what he thinks is best at the end. It's risky but if he's willing to take that risk that's his decision.

In my opinion, there were some team orders. Hamilton should not have been told that "both" drivers are in fuel saving mode. What is the need to tell Hamilton about that. Why didn't RB tell Vettel about Webber's fuel situation? I think Button was frustrated at the team and that's why he pulled that move on Hamilton. But unfortunately he had to give it up.

But what do I know, I talk nonsense

Why were only Webber, Button and Lewis on fuel save? Good question, you'll have to ask Horner, maybe a botched attempt to get Vettel past, it would account for the blame being laid at Webbers door

The reason to tell both mclaren drivers to save fuel is becuse it was probably a coded message to save tyres, fuel and brakes and not race to the end, otherwise both might not get to the end. No Button doesnt have to obey it , but its a foolish line to take. Either he got the meassge but still had a pop at Lewis or he didnt get it for some reason. Either way when Lewis saw him racin he raced back. Then they both had to fuel save.