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[Jack Master]

Actually Jack, I was convinced about Singapore 2008 about what really happened even before the race was over. I pointed it out in a different forum, but as everyone there knew I couldn't stand Alonso - no one took me seriously. Maybe my dislike for Alonso helped me see it easier.

But for MS to orchestra this one, we need a proper benefit for him to risk his head. What would Mercedes get out of it? What would MS? Simply for the sake of nationality? Impossible!! And at the start of the race!? Anything can happen, these guys aren't Gods...they are sportsmen, honest or not.

I understand you perfectly. I think this is the same kind of a case. Before the race I could have never thought that Mercedes were going to play any main role at this race.
I don’t dislike especially Michael Shumacher. I just know what everybody knows: That he’s an absolutely unscrupulous man.
I think he never thought that he was risking his head. As you know , safety has improved a lot in Formula 1 and drivers feel perfectly safe in the chicken pit. I´m sure you remember, for example, the awful accident of Kubica when he didn´t suffer any important injury at all.
As I suppose, you know as well that MS has one of the biggest egos of the world. He should have feel great playing a main role again, in deciding the WDC. Just for the like of the game, you know emotions and all that stuff. More over he’s playing the role of the friend and the mentor of Sebastian Vettel. He has appeared recently at German TV walking and talking with SV as he was his most beloved son. He has felt himself in the middle of the action again, what after the deception of his season, I think has given him a lot of satisfaction.
Mercedes is a new team, but I think they have in perspective to become one of the most important teams in Formula 1. They have been talking with Vettel to become, in a near future, a Mercedes driver, forming an all German couple of great drivers with Nico Rosberg. I suppose that MS, after retiring, will play a main role in this team. Remember that just a year ago he was at the wall of Ferrari, playing an insignificant an almost decorative role.
To make it at the start of the race is an argument that supports the supposition that it was a simulation. They need to assure the presence of the Safety Car and in a circuit with so many escapes like Abu Dhabi; they had to provoke the accident when all the cars were grouped and putting the MS car in the middle of the track. If they had made it later the car behind them could have possibly escaped at the accident.
I think everything was previously calculated. After the SC and the Rosberg stop, they only needed the complicity of the Ferrari’s strategist, who as you know was working shoulder to shoulder with MS in the five titles he won with Ferrari. Don’t forget that they are professional Formula 1 strategist. It wasn’t so difficult for them to conceive this strategy.
Without the safety car, none strategy should have allowed Sebastian Vettel to win the WDC.
After all, the most important thing for believing that they were simulating, is just watching the accident again. For me is absolutely obvious.
The rest of reasons or motivations may be those that I’ve said or others but the simulation is just a Hollywood scene. They simulated a touch that never took place (just for an inch) and MS made a perfect spin into the middle of the track stopping the car there. The SC came in.
Singapore 08 was conceived for winning a race. This time the prize was the World Drivers’ Championship.

[bud]

You must ask yourself why would Mercedes and Schumacher wish to help RedBull and Vettel?
Singapore 08 was all done in one team what youre describing requires intra team cooperation between teams that have no links, and no reason to help each other.

Even with the SC at end of the day Ferrari still chose their strategy something that Mercedes had no input on. Instead of Covering Webber Ferrari should have covered Vettel and stayed out in P4 and would have won the title.

EDIT

here is radio transmissions from Ferrari's disastrous Strategy calls. Seems Alonso even insisted to the team to pit Massa first to try and get him ahead of Webber. Alonso was partly to blame for the strategy call it seems.

Lap 9: Stella warns Alonso that Webber is loosing rhythm after he touched the wall: "You have gained three tenths over Webber. Even Felipe is getting close"

Lap 12: Andrea Stella warns about the race situation, looks like everything is going fine: "Webber has stopped and Vettel is loosing time with Hamilton".
Alonso answers: "If you see that Felipe can overtake him in a lap ask him to pit".

Lap 14: Alonso asks about Massa's pit stop: "How did it go with Felipe?"
Stella answers: "He got out behind Webber".

Lap 15: Here comes the desition from the team that costed him the WDC: "Ok. Pit now"
Alonso: "Ok".
Team: "You'll come out close to Webber. Ahead of him"

Lap 17: Alonso asks: "What is the situation?"
Stella answers: "You have to pass the Renault, he doesn't have to stop. Then it's Rosberg ahead"

Lap 22: this is the radio transmission that we all heard when Stella tells Alonso he must pass Petrov

[spankyham]

You must ask yourself why would Mercedes and Schumacher wish to help RedBull and Vettel?
Singapore 08 was all done in one team what youre describing requires intra team cooperation between teams that have no links, and no reason to help each other.

Even with the SC at end of the day Ferrari still chose their strategy

That's exactly right. We made our call. I liked Fernando's comment on this, the day after the race he said "a championship that slips away by 4 points after 19 races can be lost on so many occasions, not just at the end. We are a team: we win and we lose all together."

something that Mercedes had no input on. Instead of Covering Webber Ferrari should have covered Vettel and stayed out in P4 and would have won the title.

And if we had covered Vettel, perhaps we might have done better, perhaps we might have won, but you don't shoot people for a bad decision which is clear only after the race. It was the same team making the decision and pit stop that got us ahead in Monza and won us that race. You take the good and learn and grow stronger from the not-so-good decisions.

[bud]

No im not shooting their call, im just saying it wasn't a conspiracy which the OP suggests.

[Denthúl]

I don’t dislike especially Michael Shumacher. I just know what everybody knows: That he’s an absolutely unscrupulous man.

Only on the track and only when he stands to gain from it

There is no motivation for Schumacher, Rosberg, Mercedes, and Chris Dyer to conspire with Red Bull (or separately) to give Vettel the WDC over Alonso. I'm sorry, but you're just coming across as someone who can't accept that Ferrari and Alonso messed up big-time.

[spankyham]

I think everything was previously calculated.

You need to come to terms with the fact that Vettel won the race fair and square, Ferrari made their call, and it didn't work out - end of story. What's more, even without the SC and even if there was a SC and Fernando didn't cover Mark, there is still no guarantee that Fernando could have hung on to his lead in the WDC. Everyone at Ferrari have accepted it, and the Tifosi are already focused on 2011.

If you keep up this line of thinking you'll be just like this guy:-

[Gaz]

Actually Jack, I was convinced about Singapore 2008 about what really happened even before the race was over. I pointed it out in a different forum, but as everyone there knew I couldn't stand Alonso - no one took me seriously. Maybe my dislike for Alonso helped me see it easier.

But for MS to orchestra this one, we need a proper benefit for him to risk his head. What would Mercedes get out of it? What would MS? Simply for the sake of nationality? Impossible!! And at the start of the race!? Anything can happen, these guys aren't Gods...they are sportsmen, honest or not.

I understand you perfectly. I think this is the same kind of a case. Before the race I could have never thought that Mercedes were going to play any main role at this race.
I don’t dislike especially Michael Shumacher. I just know what everybody knows: That he’s an absolutely unscrupulous man.

Yeh but hes not a idiot hes got a wife and kids and hes trying to make good with a comeback the last thing he'd ever want to crash on purpose.

look at Singapore and how everyone considers piquet to be scum why would Schui the most successful F1 driver in terms of WDC want to risk that for no gain of his own, or his team.

I think he never thought that he was risking his head. As you know , safety has improved a lot in Formula 1 and drivers feel perfectly safe in the chicken pit. I´m sure you remember, for example, the awful accident of Kubica when he didn´t suffer any important injury at all.

Kubica suffered concussion and a sprained ankle so think you need to get your facts straight.

Schui could of been decapitated its widly known that F1 cars are not tested in head on crashes schui will know this.

If he binned it into the wall on the pit straight in the same way piquet did perhaps but you wouldn't spin an F1 car on purpose with 20 odd f1 cars flying by at over 100mph.

As I suppose, you know as well that MS has one of the biggest egos of the world. He should have feel great playing a main role again, in deciding the WDC. Just for the like of the game, you know emotions and all that stuff. More over he’s playing the role of the friend and the mentor of Sebastian Vettel. He has appeared recently at German TV walking and talking with SV as he was his most beloved son. He has felt himself in the middle of the action again, what after the deception of his season, I think has given him a lot of satisfaction.

Sorry but if i was Schui and somone asked me to crash on purpose with my MASSIVE EGO i'd of simply said no, and felt degraded for them even suggesting that.

Being asked to crash is massively worse than being asked to move aside for your team way

And this idea of yours was real and the FIA found out they'd throw the book at Schui and Mercades he'd be banned from the sport and worse i expect.

Mercedes is a new team, but I think they have in perspective to become one of the most important teams in Formula 1. They have been talking with Vettel to become, in a near future, a Mercedes driver, forming an all German couple of great drivers with Nico Rosberg. I suppose that MS, after retiring, will play a main role in this team. Remember that just a year ago he was at the wall of Ferrari, playing an insignificant an almost decorative role.
To make it at the start of the race is an argument that supports the supposition that it was a simulation. They need to assure the presence of the Safety Car and in a circuit with so many escapes like Abu Dhabi; they had to provoke the accident when all the cars were grouped and putting the MS car in the middle of the track. If they had made it later the car behind them could have possibly escaped at the accident.
I think everything was previously calculated. After the SC and the Rosberg stop, they only needed the complicity of the Ferrari’s strategist, who as you know was working shoulder to shoulder with MS in the five titles he won with Ferrari. Don’t forget that they are professional Formula 1 strategist. It wasn’t so difficult for them to conceive this strategy.
Without the safety car, none strategy should have allowed Sebastian Vettel to win the WDC.

So what your saying is:

1. Someone From RBR said to Mercedes we need your help to win the WDC
2. Mercades then agreed to do this rather than go to the FIA and get RBR Banned handing the WDC to Alonso
3. Mercades then Asked Schui to do this and he didn't go to the FIA and Get Merc, RBR both banned
4. Then Mercades asked Rosberg and he also agreed and didn't go to the FIA and Get schui, RBR and Merc Banned.
5. Then Schui contacted the stratagist at Ferrari, Alonso's race engineer non the less? and got him to agree to go against the Driver hes been help win all season just because schumacher stood next to him on the pit wall.
And the Ferrari guy agreed and didn't go to the FIA and get all the above mentioned banned.
6. And Finally they went to Mark Webber and asked him to pit early as to give their man inside Ferrari an excuse to suggest Alonso is to pit. Mark webber who's lead the WDC for most of the year and is feeling alot of resentment against the team but has a shout for the WDC agrees to pit early ruling himself out of the title to help his team mate win. And Mark says sure ok prob my last chance to win the WDC but sod it i'll give it to vettle.

7. Now after all the above they felt the best time for schui to have his fake accident is the chaos of the first lap because they knew for sure Torro Rosso and Renault (who they have also now got in on this and they've agreed not to tell the FIA and renault even gave them some tips on planning crashes) - would pit during the safty car. Oh and Force India's Lliuzi knew to crash into Schui because they have got them invovled too.

Surely it would be far easier to just tell mark to put his RBR into the side of Alonso's Ferrrai then ask Nico to Take out Lewis = Easy WDC

infact why not just hire Schui to Drive ALonso into the wall like he did with Rubens.

No no wait? why not just have Alonso assinated by the inside man at Ferrari.



OR

All thats a figment of your imagination because you can't accept Ferrari went all arm wavy Itallian and panicked about Mark Webber getting past Alonso during the pits so pitted him to early to cover and he got stuck behind the cars who pitted behind the safty car.

A safety car that was sent out because Schui gave it abit too much throttle into a corner tying to get past somone and spun. (which is incredibly easy to do in a car like that)

Put it this way if i turn off the TC on my RX8 which has 230bhp and turn the wheel and give it the beans it spin an F1 car weighs alot less and has around 800BHP so do the math F1 cars on a knife edge of balance and in the chaos of the 1st lap this year how many times have we seen drivers get over eager and bin it?

After all, the most important thing for believing that they were simulating, is just watching the accident again. For me is absolutely obvious.
The rest of reasons or motivations may be those that I’ve said or others but the simulation is just a Hollywood scene. They simulated a touch that never took place (just for an inch) and MS made a perfect spin into the middle of the track stopping the car there. The SC came in.
Singapore 08 was conceived for winning a race. This time the prize was the World Drivers’ Championship.

All that was obvious to me is that Schui's head was nearly seperated from his body and that he was lucky.

[vaptin]

here is radio transmissions from Ferrari's disastrous Strategy calls. Seems Alonso even insisted to the team to pit Massa first to try and get him ahead of Webber. Alonso was partly to blame for the strategy call it seems.

Lap 9: Stella warns Alonso that Webber is loosing rhythm after he touched the wall: "You have gained three tenths over Webber. Even Felipe is getting close"

Lap 12: Andrea Stella warns about the race situation, looks like everything is going fine: "Webber has stopped and Vettel is loosing time with Hamilton".
Alonso answers: "If you see that Felipe can overtake him in a lap ask him to pit".

Lap 14: Alonso asks about Massa's pit stop: "How did it go with Felipe?"
Stella answers: "He got out behind Webber".

Lap 15: Here comes the desition from the team that costed him the WDC: "Ok. Pit now"
Alonso: "Ok".
Team: "You'll come out close to Webber. Ahead of him"

Lap 17: Alonso asks: "What is the situation?"
Stella answers: "You have to pass the Renault, he doesn't have to stop. Then it's Rosberg ahead"

Lap 22: this is the radio transmission that we all heard when Stella tells Alonso he must pass Petrov

Interesting, looks like Ferrari didn't just miss Rosberg and Petrov then, but underestimated the difficultly in getting past. Make's the decision look slightly smarter that way though, as presumably they were expecting Webber to be able to pass Petrov and Rosberg and on the new tyres go on to leapfrog Alonso in the pitstop, they of course knew the redbull was a faster car than the Ferrari.

Also, where did you find the team radio? Is this just a one off bit of information, or do you use a site to find them regularly?

[Jack Master]

You must ask yourself why would Mercedes and Schumacher wish to help RedBull and Vettel?
Singapore 08 was all done in one team what youre describing requires intra team cooperation between teams that have no links, and no reason to help each other.

Even with the SC at end of the day Ferrari still chose their strategy something that Mercedes had no input on. Instead of Covering Webber Ferrari should have covered Vettel and stayed out in P4 and would have won the title.

EDIT

here is radio transmissions from Ferrari's disastrous Strategy calls. Seems Alonso even insisted to the team to pit Massa first to try and get him ahead of Webber. Alonso was partly to blame for the strategy call it seems.

Lap 9: Stella warns Alonso that Webber is loosing rhythm after he touched the wall: "You have gained three tenths over Webber. Even Felipe is getting close"

Lap 12: Andrea Stella warns about the race situation, looks like everything is going fine: "Webber has stopped and Vettel is loosing time with Hamilton".
Alonso answers: "If you see that Felipe can overtake him in a lap ask him to pit".

Lap 14: Alonso asks about Massa's pit stop: "How did it go with Felipe?"
Stella answers: "He got out behind Webber".

Lap 15: Here comes the desition from the team that costed him the WDC: "Ok. Pit now"
Alonso: "Ok".
Team: "You'll come out close to Webber. Ahead of him"

Lap 17: Alonso asks: "What is the situation?"
Stella answers: "You have to pass the Renault, he doesn't have to stop. Then it's Rosberg ahead"

Interesting Bud, but If we stop for a moment and think about the huge value for a driver and a team, of getting a WDC you could easily imagine hundreds of interesting compensations you can get by giving it.
Alliances for getting targets are older than humanity’s history. If we can’t get something by our own means it’s a very natural thing to look for alliances in order to fulfill our objectives.
I’ve said many times before that the complicity of the Ferrari’s strategist was absolutely required for making things work. It was so obvious for a normal person (not at the end of the race but during the course of it) that Ferrari should have covered Vettel staying at P4. That such a stupid error from a professional strategist, one of the best and more experienced in Formula 1, remains absolutely unbelievable.
About the radio transmissions from Ferrari, there’s the man. Who gave the order in lap 15 “OK. Pit know”, knowing Massa situation and that overtaking in Abu Dhabi is almost impossible. It was too evident that the correct strategy, as they have made in hundreds of races before, was staying in P4 until opening a gap to stop and restart the race in front of Rosberg. An error? I’m afraid not. It was too obvious.

Lap 22: this is the radio transmission that we all heard when Stella tells Alonso he must pass Petrov

[Denthúl]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

What would have happened if Webber had found clear air and been able to lap a lot faster with fresh tyres? What if the soft tyres hadn't stabilised after the graining period? At the time, it just looked like they were getting worse and worse. Anyone could have made that call and it could have worked out fantastically if the soft tyre hadn't come back to the drivers.

[Jack Master]

You must ask yourself why would Mercedes and Schumacher wish to help RedBull and Vettel?
Singapore 08 was all done in one team what youre describing requires intra team cooperation between teams that have no links, and no reason to help each other.

Even with the SC at end of the day Ferrari still chose their strategy

That's exactly right. We made our call. I liked Fernando's comment on this, the day after the race he said "a championship that slips away by 4 points after 19 races can be lost on so many occasions, not just at the end. We are a team: we win and we lose all together."

something that Mercedes had no input on. Instead of Covering Webber Ferrari should have covered Vettel and stayed out in P4 and would have won the title.

And if we had covered Vettel, perhaps we might have done better, perhaps we might have won, but you don't shoot people for a bad decision which is clear only after the race. It was the same team making the decision and pit stop that got us ahead in Monza and won us that race. You take the good and learn and grow stronger from the not-so-good decisions.

I thing you are a fair and noble man Spankyham. I agree with you, Fernando couldn´t do anything but supporting the team.
But as I’ve said before, I’m an independent man. I’m not complaining or looking for excuses. I’m just saying what I think that actually happened at Abu Dhaby.
I don’t say that one of them: Vettel, Webber or Alonso, should have won the WDC instead of the others. Any of them deserves it. What I really hate is people cheating and manipulating the races.
I think that MS simulated the accident and the Ferrari’s strategist took the wrong decision on purpose.
I don’t know what they have got for that, but the immense value of what they got, allow you to imagine almost whatever you want.
The Ferrari’s strategist decision wasn’t an error. It was too obvious. I’m not blaming him for a mistake, but for purposely damaging the whole team.

[texasmr2]

I think that MS simulated the accident and the Ferrari’s strategist took the wrong decision on purpose.

You are insane and just another conspiracy theorist, NASCAR needs you now to figure out why Jimmy Johnson won 5 straight titles !!

[kerc]

Best trolls ever.

[Jack Master]

I don’t dislike especially Michael Shumacher. I just know what everybody knows: That he’s an absolutely unscrupulous man.

Only on the track and only when he stands to gain from it

There is no motivation for Schumacher, Rosberg, Mercedes, and Chris Dyer to conspire with Red Bull (or separately) to give Vettel the WDC over Alonso. I'm sorry, but you're just coming across as someone who can't accept that Ferrari and Alonso messed up big-time.

Interesting Denthúl, but an unscrupulous man is an unscrupulous man. Just as a fish is a fish and a horse is a horse. I repeat that you have to consider the huge value of the WDC. It’s easy to imagine any of the things that they can gain from their actions. Almost everything they wanted.
I wouldn’t call it a conspiracy. Just an alliance, for now or for the future as well. That sounds much more normal and under stable.
I feel perfectly with Sebastian Vettel as WDC, he deserves it at least as much as any other and I sincerely congratulate him.
I just hate lies and manipulation in any sport.

[Gaz]

Jack with regards to my post above the massive ammout of co-operation invovled and the risk from a "being caught by the FIA" point of view on top of the fact that Schui could of been killed is just too much a stretch of the imagination to believe your theory is true.

In my opinion its the fact that they were worried about covering webber, saw his tries go and worried about Alonso's tire wear and just either misjudged the safty car pit stoppers or forgot about them