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[sagi58]

Exactly... so why continue whining about it? Just work hard and catch up quickly, yes? We can close this thread now.

Well it is good t see at least one person agree that Merc's continuing advantage is due to the engine freeze and the resulting lack of competition! That wasn't so hard was it?!

Unfortunately the others can't just "work hard and catch up quickly" as you put it due to the engine rules. They have to work hard but can only catch up slowly if at all in 2015. We will see.

As for closing the discussion I think that the aftermath of not changing the freeze rules will have a effects continuing into next season.

That's the price you pay in F1 for being wrong. Ferrari had to get rid of half their staff because of it. It's clearly not Mercedes' fault that Ferrari are an embarrassment to Enzo's legacy.

You want them to now be given a free pass to catch up, on top of the 90 million they already get for showing up and for what? To offer mediocre performances and second rate design descisons? I'd rather get the competition from William, Force India, Honda and even Red Bull if they continue to improve their weak engine that only got them three wins last year. Maybe it's not so weak since no other Mercedes team could manage that. So We should continue to make exceptions for Ferrari and Red Bull just because.

I'm so looking forward to 2015.

No free pass!

The rules are flawed and have handed (inadvertently) a technology advantage to Merc. No one is saying to give Ferrari or Red Bull/Renault and their customers a free pass, what is being said is that freezing engines before they are of a mature design has failed and that the rules should be relaxed to allow the others a chance to catch up, just a chance. The on track 'product' has suffered with one team in a separate class and can only be improved with free competition imo.

I am not sure what Ferrari's financial arrangements have to do with the engine rules.

It is obvious though that the impact of the engine rules far overrides team budgets with lesser budgeted teams doing better than teams with the larger budgets. Teams are not able to spend what they would like to on the engines as they are frozen, they are forced to actually waste money trying to make up the difference somewhere else, on aero etc., which just can't overcome the vast engine deficits.

[overboost]

It is obvious though that the impact of the engine rules far overrides team budgets with lesser budgeted teams doing better than teams with the larger budgets. Teams are not able to spend what they would like to on the engines as they are frozen, they are forced to actually waste money trying to make up the difference somewhere else, on aero etc., which just can't overcome the vast engine deficits.

Why do you show so little respect to fellow members by continuing to lie after repeatedly told the truth by many different members? Its getting very alarming, like we are indulging some kind of personal issues you have with society.

Teams do not develop engines - lesser budget and higher budget spend exactly the same on engines, that has been the case for 20 years

Are you not capable of doing some cursory investigation into the regs and rules of F1?

I am starting to suspect that some 'members' on here are software robots designed by RBR with the money they saved by not blueprinting their Renault engine back at Milton Keynes

Yes cooking the teams buy engines and different levels of support, packaging and engine upgrades(now frozen) from engine suppliers. Two of the teams are are also engine suppliers and a third a works team with Renault. The amounts paid come out of the teams operating budgets and with the amount they spend on the engines frozen they are spending (wasting) money on trying to make up the difference in lap time on things like aero tricks etc. I hope this clears things up for you.

Do you specialize in pedantry? It seems to be all that you contribute these days. Also you have conveniently overlooked responding to a few of my posts now, but yet find the time to jump all over word definitions!? So if you have some relevant answers to post please do, otherwise maybe you should take a nap or something.

[CookinFlat6]

Stop lying, only 1 person agrees with you and they know even less than you

Yes cooking the teams buy engines and different levels of support, packaging and engine upgrades(now frozen) from engine suppliers.

Different levels of support, packaging and upgrades? we are talking about the engines here, there is no freeze on support and packaging is there OB? Who is stopping teams spending what they want on support? If the maker offers different levels show how this is frozen
Upgrades?? ALL teams get the same upgrades at the same time - its in the regs, otherwise we would have a multiple spec engine formula - like WEC, the last time there was a B and A engine, say Renault supplying Benneton and Williams was, like I said decades ago - you are embarrasing yourself

Two of the teams are are also engine suppliers and a third a works team with Renault.

Doesnt matter if 2 teams have an engine maker in the family, theres still another 8 teams, so thats a stupid point because the engine makers cant make one spec for themselves and one for customers anyway - its in the regs and has been for 20 years

The amounts paid come out of the teams operating budgets and with the amount they spend on the engines frozen they are spending (wasting) money on trying to make up the difference in lap time on things like aero tricks etc.

Trying to make the difference on Aero?, what do you think the last era was about?? teams spending fortunes on aero gadgets that added fractional increase - THATS WHY THEY CHANGED THE REGS - Montezedodo complained about dark arts Aero and demanded a return to an engine formula

You just dont do winning at all do you OB, you seem very well practised at losing, complaining, losing etc etc - you dont even bother anymore


Ferrari and Merc were the only 2 engine makers with real works teams in this context. RBR received their engines at the same time as the others and it wasnt built around them, so thats a fail for you

[overboost]

Stop lying, only 1 person agrees with you and they know even less than you

Yes cooking the teams buy engines and different levels of support, packaging and engine upgrades(now frozen) from engine suppliers.

Different levels of support, packaging and upgrades? we are talking about the engines here, there is no freeze on support and packaging is there OB? Who is stopping teams spending what they want on support? If the maker offers different levels show how this is frozen
Upgrades?? ALL teams get the same upgrades at the same time - its in the regs, otherwise we would have a multiple spec engine formula - like WEC, the last time there was a B and A engine, say Renault supplying Benneton and Williams was, like I said decades ago - you are embarrasing yourself

Two of the teams are are also engine suppliers and a third a works team with Renault.

Doesnt matter if 2 teams have an engine maker in the family, theres still another 8 teams, so thats a stupid point because the engine makers cant make one spec for themselves and one for customers anyway - its in the regs and has been for 20 years

The amounts paid come out of the teams operating budgets and with the amount they spend on the engines frozen they are spending (wasting) money on trying to make up the difference in lap time on things like aero tricks etc.

Trying to make the difference on Aero?, what do you think the last era was about?? teams spending fortunes on aero gadgets that added fractional increase - THATS WHY THEY CHANGED THE REGS - Montezedodo complained about dark arts Aero and demanded a return to an engine formula

You just dont do winning at all do you OB, you seem very well practised at losing, complaining, losing etc etc - you dont even bother anymore


Ferrari and Merc were the only 2 engine makers with real works teams in this context. RBR received their engines at the same time as the others and it wasnt built around them, so thats a fail for you[/quote]

Lying? What is this about cookingflat6? At least try to explain yourself!

And yes as I said spending money on aero is a waste, why are you repeating this back to me??

A multi engine spec? What? No. I am saying that the money could not be spent on engine upgrades (they are frozen, the engine suppliers can't charge for upgrades they don't do) and the teams with the budgets resorted to wasting money on aero to try and make gains, an effort in futility as the engine gap is too great.

The engine rules didn't work, teams are wasting money, the racing was just dull and predictable. But hey we get to see good fuel economy!

[overboost]

So ferrari insiders are saying they got it wrong. Renault have admitted much the same. Yet some, like Horner, still cling to the safety net that it's all Mercs fault. LOL

Yes it looks like the Ferrari power and aero depts could have been working together in a more coordinated fashion (this is probably why the heads of these groups have been replaced).

But at the same time Mercedes insiders are saying that they had gained an advantage from the freeze vs their competitors. Most of the gains in fact.

"They benefited from the fact that they did a very good job and they benefited from the fact that the regulations are locked with the engines being frozen, "Most of the gains they have had come from the engine and they will for a couple of years until everybody can match them in terms of development." - Eric Boullier.

Boullier is the Mercedes insider? I use iMacs for my publishing company and I know everything useful there is to know about iOS based on how I use the platform. Am I then an Apple insider? Seriously? Boullier is now going to say anything he can to paint a disadvantaged image of his team now that they are not using Mercedes engines. Maybe I was napping during his press conferences this season when he was crying out to the heavens, "Somebody call the police! We at McLaren are enjoying an advantage and I for one can't take it anymore. The guilt is too much. Now excuse me while I go find a ledge from which to perch...just before I wipe my tear-filled eyes and pitch off into the sweet by-and-by. God forgive me"

Seriously...

Ha, you compare yourself as one of hundreds of millions users of iMac software to Bouillier who was one of only 4 Mercedes F1 engine customers! Not really the same level of access, input or communication.

Of course being a major Merc customer Bouillier has inside info on Merc as well he has his professional insight as what is going on in the paddock and on track. Plus he is just speaking the obvious, and it is also verified by Merc's actions - blocking un-freezing the engine rules because it is their big advantage over the rest.

You are probably right that if they had remained a Merc customer EB would not have made these comments. But it is what is is now that McLaren are going with Honda, EB is free to talk in general terms at least about Merc.

[CookinFlat6]

[youtube]tgd46QiHz4I[/youtube]

[The Second Coming]

You are probably right that if they had remained a Merc customer EB would not have made these comments. But it is what is is now that McLaren are going with Honda, EB is free to talk in general terms at least about Merc.

Boullier may have some insight into what is happening within the paddock but he's nowhere near the true heartbeat of Mercedes, outside of what they share with all their customers. He's just on because he finds himself outside, looking in. Worst yet, it's becoming clear that their, McLaren, world-beater Honda package isn't going to be what they expected/hoped. So on goes the moaning. Yes, he's free to talk. So does Mercedes, simply by saying "Nope!" when asked to allow the freeze. So there you go...everyone's talking.

[overboost]

You are probably right that if they had remained a Merc customer EB would not have made these comments. But it is what is is now that McLaren are going with Honda, EB is free to talk in general terms at least about Merc.

Boullier may have some insight into what is happening within the paddock but he's nowhere near the true heartbeat of Mercedes, outside of what they share with all their customers. He's just on because he finds himself outside, looking in. Worst yet, it's becoming clear that their, McLaren, world-beater Honda package isn't going to be what they expected/hoped. So on goes the moaning. Yes, he's free to talk. So does Mercedes, simply by saying "Nope!" when asked to allow the freeze. So there you go...everyone's talking.

Well not quite, they were a just little bit blunter than a simple no.

First Wolfe misrepresented fair competition as an engine "war" and then Lauda threatened to pull Mercedes out of F1 altogether if the engines were changed. Why face real competition when you can just quit!

We will see if Lauda's tantrum actually means anything if the rules are changed or voted out!

[What's Burning?]

You are probably right that if they had remained a Merc customer EB would not have made these comments. But it is what is is now that McLaren are going with Honda, EB is free to talk in general terms at least about Merc.

Boullier may have some insight into what is happening within the paddock but he's nowhere near the true heartbeat of Mercedes, outside of what they share with all their customers. He's just on because he finds himself outside, looking in. Worst yet, it's becoming clear that their, McLaren, world-beater Honda package isn't going to be what they expected/hoped. So on goes the moaning. Yes, he's free to talk. So does Mercedes, simply by saying "Nope!" when asked to allow the freeze. So there you go...everyone's talking.

Well not quite, they were a just little bit blunter than a simple no.

First Wolfe misrepresented fair competition as an engine "war" and then Lauda threatened to pull Mercedes out of F1 altogether if the engines were changed. Why face real competition when you can just quit!

We will see if Lauda's tantrum actually means anything if the rules are changed or voted out!

... and you will keep whining and complaining more frequently than Mr. Ginger Spice until they change said rules and the chasm to Mercedes is finally bridged by Ferrari and Renault around the year 2018 or 2019. Enjoy the sport till then!

[The Second Coming]

You are probably right that if they had remained a Merc customer EB would not have made these comments. But it is what is is now that McLaren are going with Honda, EB is free to talk in general terms at least about Merc.

Boullier may have some insight into what is happening within the paddock but he's nowhere near the true heartbeat of Mercedes, outside of what they share with all their customers. He's just on because he finds himself outside, looking in. Worst yet, it's becoming clear that their, McLaren, world-beater Honda package isn't going to be what they expected/hoped. So on goes the moaning. Yes, he's free to talk. So does Mercedes, simply by saying "Nope!" when asked to allow the freeze. So there you go...everyone's talking.

Well not quite, they were a just little bit blunter than a simple no!

First Wolfe misrepresented fair competition as an engine "war" and then Lauda threatened to pull Mercedes out of F1 altogether if the engines were changed. Why face real competition when you can just quit!

We will see if Lauda's tantrum actually means anything if the rules are voted out!

Competition is giving all teams a clean sheet and say, "Here are the rules. Build to your heart's content within the rules, knowing that it will be frozen at the agreed upon date." Everyone said " , agreed." In other sports...soccer, football, basketball, etc...the losers would stand up and say "We got it wrong and deserved to have our heads handed to us. Next year we will find a way to be more competitive." Rules are part of competition. But no, not F1. The minute a team loses then we hear, "Oh, woes me, competition is stifled because we don't have a chance." Well, the prevailing consensus is that you were given a chance and you p*ssed it away. So now you want to say, "Forget about that first chance, give me another...and then another...and then..." Is that competition? Part of the rules is the freeze. Everyone agreed to it for all the right reasons. As I've asked before, what happens when Mercedes relaxes on the issue, everyone takes a step forward, gaining another 70hp to try and catch up to Mercedes 2014 power while Mercedes unleashes another 95hp? Bitch, bitch, bitch! And the development costs keep going up. Then Sauber p*sses themselves and are out. Then Lotus. Then Force India starts to get shaky. This will never end well unless teams stick to the rules as was agreed with a long term view. Yes, Mercedes AMG may be winners for a couple years but how is that any different from Red Bull's term in power...or Ferrari or Williams, etc.? Sore losers.

[racechick]

Very well put Second Coming. I don't understand why this is proving so difficult for some to grasp

[What's Burning?]

UN Ambassador for The Winless visits overboost and presents boxed video set of the FIA F1 World Championship 2000-2004

[CookinFlat6]

UN Ambassador to Lalaland visits members with 'butthurt tempered selective memory glitch' syndrome and explains how each team can spend a fortune on a front wing that gives better performance AFTER being damaged in a crash, and how this spending is not an alternative to spending money on the engine between races or spending money on hiring 100 Renault engine assistants instead of just the 1

But commits ritual hara kiri after being asked to explain 'from the start' for the 324th time and to explain the 'middle part' 738 times

[sagi58]

...Competition is giving all teams a clean sheet and say, "Here are the rules. Build to your heart's content within the rules, knowing that it will be frozen at the agreed upon date." Everyone said " , agreed."...

No one is discounting the facts, as they happened. The issue is that they were flawed at the time they were being written because they have inadvertently given ONE team an advantage over the rest of the field. I highly doubt that any of the teams agreed to that.

...the losers would stand up and say "We got it wrong and deserved to have our heads handed to us. Next year we will find a way to be more competitive."...

But, that's just the problem, isn't it? There is NO "next year" in F1, is there? 2015 will be more of the same UN-competitiveness AMONGST the teams on the grid. That there is competition BETWEEN teammates is all well and good, IF there is competition from outside the team, too.

...Rules are part of competition. But no, not F1. The minute a team loses then we hear, "Oh, woes me, competition is stifled because we don't have a chance." ...

Yes, rules are part of the competition; but, not when those same rules have inadvertently stifled that competition.
And, for the record, in this case, it's not "a" team that has lost.

...Part of the rules is the freeze. Everyone agreed to it for all the right reasons...

That's true, everyone voted in favour of these rules in good faith; unfortunately, the rules have given "a" team an unfair advantage and that team is refusing to back down from its vantage point. Can't say that I blame them, or their fans for arguing so vehemently in favour of keeping the status quo; but, let's not pretend it's about principles. Let's call it what it is, Mercedes is on to a good thing and neither they nor their fans want to let it go.

[sagi58]

Very well put Second Coming. I don't understand why this is proving so difficult for some to grasp

It's not difficult to grasp that Mercedes has an advantage that they just don't want to let go.
Can't blame them for that; however, it's not about being altruistic and wanting to save money,
nor is it about sticking to the rules and principles. It's about the advantage. Period.