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[marlessco]

people looking for blood are just alonso haters, but lets be frank there are plenty of reason's to do so.

... the blame lies within ferrari management not Felipe and unfortunately not Alonso.

How naive... were you asleep when the wingeing toad commented on the radio... "this is ridiculous"... in was it Spanish? when he knows that most listen in English which he speaks perfectly well???? Oh please...

Were you also asleep with all the other incidents that has involved Alonso?

Yes I dislike Alonso intensely.... however, once I didn't... I had him as my lead driver in fantasy Formula One. My dislike for him is because of his attitude, how he presents himself e.g. the first time he deliberately held up Hamilton when driving for McLaren which wasn't on team orders or indeed during racing but in the pits?. Sorry but I call him a cheat, I dislike cheats and I watch Formula One for the Sport and not for any form of fixing.

So please don't think we are just Alonso haters. We have reasons.

[bud]

Flux isnt a fan of Alonso either i gathered from his post?

[marlessco]

Flux isnt a fan of Alonso either i gathered from his post?

OK I can see that could be the case but I was really responding to the fact that it was through pure hatred for Alonso that we write these posts.

Oh and I am not a fan of Ferrari either... great set up, I respect Smedley but the Italians seem hell bent to also cheat the rules and winge.... so I suppose really Alonso and Ferrari are well suited.

Nowadays I get no pleasure from watching Ferrari. All the other teams at their various stages provides great entertainment. Most drivers present themselves well. Ferrari are always checking the rule book and don't seem to follow the spirit of racing.

Incidentally, I thought Vettel should have been investigated for dangerous driving at the start for excessive squeezing on Alonso which allowed Massa in, but hey that's motor racing... isn't it?

[Flux]

people looking for blood are just alonso haters, but lets be frank there are plenty of reason's to do so.

... the blame lies within ferrari management not Felipe and unfortunately not Alonso.

How naive... were you asleep when the wingeing toad commented on the radio... "this is ridiculous"... in was it Spanish? when he knows that most listen in English which he speaks perfectly well???? Oh please...

Were you also asleep with all the other incidents that has involved Alonso?

Yes I dislike Alonso intensely.... however, once I didn't... I had him as my lead driver in fantasy Formula One. My dislike for him is because of his attitude, how he presents himself e.g. the first time he deliberately held up Hamilton when driving for McLaren which wasn't on team orders or indeed during racing but in the pits?. Sorry but I call him a cheat, I dislike cheats and I watch Formula One for the Sport and not for any form of fixing.

So please don't think we are just Alonso haters. We have reasons.

how the hell am i being naive ? nearly every driver whine's down the radio at there team, lewis ? schumi ? even at the back trulli, its something that happens a lot in f1 for pretty obv reasons, that then cant enforce that he has forced the rest of his team into race fixing it was a management choice forced onto massa like it was forced onto rubens in 02.

like you i used to think alonso was great, and i believe he probably still is a great driver but when people say he is the most "complete" out there is rubbish, a driver with such emotional instability and anger just in my mind isn't the complete package everyone talks about, his attitude towards others stinks.

oh and i wasnt "asleep" when all the other alonso s*** happened i just assumed this thread being called "radio gate " that we were talking about radio gate right ?

[marlessco]

how the hell am i being naive ? nearly every driver whine's down the radio at there team, lewis ? schumi ? even at the back trulli

Let me explain...

One Question...

In What Language did Alonso make his comment in?

They ALL speak English and the Sport is conducted in English. Do you not think that it ADDS to the code?

viz. "If I speak in Spanish then you know I want you to ask Felipe to be a nice boy and move over for me".

Then... the hesitant Smedley passing on the information when we have heard about the high activity in the pits just prior to the "purported" team order which took place just after Alonso's comment.

...and yes OK you are right let's stick to RADIO-GATE here.

NB. I cannot remember Schumi talking in German or Trulli in Italian nor indeed any other race driver speaking in any other language over the radio. Maybe someone can come up with an example.

[Flux]

unless i all of a sudden understand spanish. i heard " this is ridiculous " in english ? the audio quality was poor, but when the bbc commentators where speaking about it, they didn't need to wait for a translation.

i dont really think a "change of language " could be determined to be alonso telling ferrari to tell felipe to move over.

and oh sorry just re reading a few posts, it seems some people belive that the only options ferrari had were 1 . vettle was gona catch alonso and immediately pass 2. massa and alonso would immediately crash 3. massa could never defend the position

drivers are in these positions generally down to merit not down to luck, theres no proof, no previous example to go by that any of the outcomes would have happened.


just looked it up for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0WT67WLPtQ

thats english mate, although i do feel like im defending alonso all of a sudden, all i mean to be doing is just setting the facts straight.

[Juliet P]

By the way, 'this is ridiculous' in spanish is 'esto es ridiculo' - with the poor quality radio transmission and Alonso's accent it would be difficult to tell which language he was saying it in anyway!

[Troyron]

Must say people are really taking this to a new level. I will only make a few points, which actually summarizes what happened and if its wrong or not.

1) The rule says no team orders.
2) Nothing about what time during the season, its just not allowed.
3) Says nothing about if he could have made the pass or could not. Its just not allowed.
4) Nobody said Massa needed to let him pass, yes you might read through the lines. But the wording was not used.
5) Alonso never said that Massa needed to let him pass.
6) Alonso was catching Massa quickly, he was 3.5 sec behind and it was now down to 0.8 sec. He would have made a move if Massa had not let him pass. This could have resulted in a crash similar to Red Bull in Turkey.
7) Other teams have used/still use team orders, and not got punished (Hamilton 2008 f. instance).
All the teams are companies, and spend several hundred millions per season. They need to enhance their chances of winning, therefore let the driver with best chance to win the title have some advantages. Alonso did not have these advantages in the beginning of the season. Now its time to focus on one driver. As McLaren should have done in 2007.
9) Ferrari can be punished, the Alonso can not as he did not do anything wrong.

and finally, ask yourself this

Are you angry because Massa and his engineer made it so oblivious or is it because its Ferrari and Alonso? Because surely most of you did not react like this when Hamilton got all the advantages over Heikki Kovalainen in 2008.

In my opinion team orders must be allowed as it is in most other sports (running, cycling etc). If one car helps you, there are still 22 others you need to beat.

[bud]

Is that you Fernando?

[vaptin]

I don't know how the following will be viewed by the WMSC, mitigating or incriminating:
Smedley told FM earlier that he had to bring the gap to FA up to 3 seconds, so he needed to push with the implication it seems if he wasn't able to do that he would get told that FA was the faster driver. FM wasn't able to do so and hence, the radio message was sent that started the whole schlamassel.
FM as the good Ferrari soldier would say: I was informed that FA was the faster driver. In order to avoid a Red Bull outcome, *I* thought it better to let him by to secure a double podium for the team.
How the stewards or the WMSC could 'prove' that it was team orders and not FM's insight based on the info he was given, I'd really like to see. As long as FM sticks to that line, I can't see any further sanctions handed out to Ferrari.

I think you've called it right.

The case rests on Massa insisting he made the decision, I can't see how it can be proved Rob telling Massa "Alonso is faster" was a coded message and not simply information.

[bud]

you both saying the WMSC will go against the stewards decision that Ferrari did infact inform Massa to let Alonso through? Wishful thinking i can foresee the WMSC either taking away the win DSQ both drivers or banning them for one race.

[vaptin]

you both saying the WMSC will go against the stewards decision that Ferrari did infact inform Massa to let Alonso through? Wishful thinking i can foresee the WMSC either taking away the win DSQ both drivers or banning them for one race.

True, I'm still surprised the Stewards made that decision anyway, I don't see how they could've.

Hopefully when this is over, an explanation will be released.

Anyway,

It's worth pointing out that the previous version of this rule said "team orders that are against the interests of competition are forbidden".

Under that wording, you could even make the case that what Ferrari did was explicitly allowed, even encouraged, by the rules - in that letting Alonso win was absolutely in the interests of competition, ie in increasing the prospects of an interesting world championship fight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson ... in_kn.html

Equally, I don't see the logic of an argument that says Ferrari should be penalised for this incident but teams and drivers should not have been punished for similar situations in the past.

The most obvious recent one that springs to mind decided the result of the world championship in 2007.

In the final race of the season in Brazil, Massa was leading then-Ferrari team-mate Kimi Raikkonen, with Alonso - then at McLaren - in third place and the Spaniard's team-mate Hamilton fighting his way back up the field, eventually finishing fifth.

Had Massa won, Hamilton would have been world champion - but Massa, clearly under instruction from Ferrari, gave up a victory in his home race so his team-mate could win the title.

No one complained then. So why now?

[bud]

you dont see how they couldve? wtf??? take off your red glasses youll see how quite easily!

[Gaz]

In 2007 in Brazil Massa was out of contention for the championship when he moved over for Kimi.

In 2008 in China Kimi was out of contention for the championshi when he moved over for Massa.

Now, in 2010 Massa can still win the Championship mathamaticly, it may seam unlikely but team orders this early in the seas on are boring for the fans.

It looked like vettle was gonn catch Alonso and Massa and we could of had a race but Ferrari ruined that.

[bud]

in both the above instances Ferrari never gave the order over the radio, both drivers knew the stakes pre race talks about scenarios of the points and gladly moved over on their own accord. I can guarantee before the race Massa thought he had every shot at winning the race the call from Smedley would have been a stake through the heart!