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[scotty]

Asking a driver to move over is team orders in my book, i don't give a crap what position it's for or what the situation is. It's against the rules and is therefore cheating. Seems like no one is willing to admit it when their team does it though, so people in glass houses and all that.

[vaptin]

How can you say heikki lost a place? Lewis was 2 places ahead of him nothing was stopping him from overtaking Massa and Piquet! You Ferrari fans are weak, can't admit your team broke the rules and act like kids and point the finger at situations not even remotely similar to say "but miss they did it tooo"
What ever end of the day if a Redbull or McLaren driver win this years title atleast it won't be because they were helped by their team mate, thus a worthier winner than Alonso!

Grow up bud. Your the type whose already taken a position based on team colours anyway, in that respect your no different from the likes of Bill, Akr etc. I'm still wondering how you managed to meet and accurately asses every Ferrari fan in the world.

I did say Ferrari used team orders, but I've also pointed out why the FIA couldn't really punish them for it.

The driver will win this years title because of help from his team, Massa is in the same team as Alonso. You really think the other teams don't switch their drivers around because its banned in the rule book? They don't do it for other reasons.

Hekki didn't lose a position? Did Lewis not pass him then?

[bud]

Grow up? WTF I take it you have no argument if you're saying that mate!

And my position is based on Massa slowing down for Alonso! Wouldn't matter if it was at Renault! Don't try and make it any other way


And yeah can't you count? Lewis finished 1st Hekki 4th. If you think McLaren hurt Heikkis race why didn't he pass the two cars ahead? It's not like Lewis passed him for 3rd and that was as far as he got...

Anyways this is boring it's like talking to a brick wall, a red one at that!

[vaptin]

Grow up? WTF I take it you have no argument if you're saying that mate!

Seeing as you just responded to the rest of my post, I'll assume I did have an argument in there somewhere,
[quoted yeah can't you count? Lewis finished 1st Hekki 4th. If you think McLaren hurt Heikkis race why didn't he pass the two cars ahead? It's not like Lewis passed him for 3rd and that was as far as he got...][/quote]

Your missing the point or being deliberatly obtuse, personally I think its due to you being so determined to make Ferrari out as evil and cannot bear some form of parity with Mclaren in using team orders, Hekki lost his place to Lewis, there were two cars ahead of Hekki, he let Lewis past, now there are 3 cars ahead of Hekki, Hekki was in third with only two cars ahead of him, with Lewis in front there were now 3 cars ahead of Hekki meaning he was 4th. 4th position is less than third in a grand prix, so Hekki had moved from a higher positon to a lower one, hence the term "lost a place".

Not only that, but the rule states

team orders that interfere with a race result

, why were Mclaren not punished for that incident? It doesn't matter if Mclaren could justify their team orders under that wording (which is why I preferred the old rule).

Also, why did Lewis need team orders to get past Hekki? If he was faster than Hekki why couldn't he just overtake him? Lewis got help from his teamate, he's not a worth champion! (I don't actually believe my previous statement, just making a point by applying accusations I've seen used at Alonso to Lewis).

[bud]

You call that an argument, I call it weak! You're delusional if you can't comprehend that Lewis WAS faster than heikki, he had fresher tyres and was unbeatable that day!

[vaptin]

You call that an argument, I call it weak! You're delusional if you can't comprehend that Lewis WAS faster than heikki, he had fresher tyres and was unbeatable that day!

I never said otherwise . . . thats not even my point.

[bud]

Are you saying Lewis wouldn't have made a pass on Hekki with out a team order? He had him no matter what he was over a second a lap faster the only order the team gave was that much! It was futile! Comparing to Massa Alonso where they were lapping identically well there is no comparison.

[vaptin]

Are you saying Lewis wouldn't have made a pass on Hekki with out a team order? He had him no matter what he was over a second a lap faster the only order the team gave was that much! It was futile! Comparing to Massa Alonso where they were lapping identically well there is no comparison.

Grow up? WTF I take it you have no argument if you're saying that mate!

Also, why did Lewis need team orders to get past Hekki? If he was faster than Hekki why couldn't he just overtake him? Lewis got help from his teamate, he's not a worth champion! (I don't actually believe my previous statement, just making a point by applying accusations I've seen used at Alonso to Lewis).

No, he probably would've overtaken him, I was reversing the logic applied to Alonso-Massa,

Ok, he would've gone past (according to you), then why did they use a team order? Why was it ok for Mclaren to tell Hekki to move out of the way, but Ferrari not to tell Massa?

And why no FIA punishment?

The logic isn't very different, Mclaren got Hekki out of the way as they felt it was beneficial to have Lewis get past him, they were proved right. Ferrari got Massa out of the way, as they felt it would be beneficial to the team, were they right? I think so, when I first saw it I thought they were wrong and Massa's confidence would've been destroyed.

[myownalias]

Are you saying Lewis wouldn't have made a pass on Hekki with out a team order? He had him no matter what he was over a second a lap faster the only order the team gave was that much! It was futile! Comparing to Massa Alonso where they were lapping identically well there is no comparison.

I don't believe that argument holds up; how many times have we seen a driver catching the driver in front by a second or more a lap; only to take position behind and follow them around for lap after lap; the dirty air coming off a modern F1 car is too disruptive completely unbalancing the car behind, catching the car in front is no guarantee of being able to pass, in the words of Murray Walker "catching is one thing, overtaking is another". Hopefully next season that will change with the removal of the double diffuser!

[bud]

Alias he passed massa and piquet without a problem did he not? When you're over a second faster than the cars infront dirty air makes no difference!

Oh and vaptin have a nice day

[myownalias]

Alias he passed massa and piquet without a problem did he not? When you're over a second faster than the cars infront dirty air makes no difference!

Yes he did pass Massa and Piquet; but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the pace to pass his team mate; after all they have identical cars (unless you're suggesting otherwise?). Kovalainen could have made it very hard for Hamilton to pass; I'm not saying that he couldn't have passed him, I am merely suggesting that Hamilton may not have been able to pass his team mate; we see it happen all the time; catching hand over fist until getting within a second then not being able to make further progress!

[racechick]

Alias he passed massa and piquet without a problem did he not? When you're over a second faster than the cars infront dirty air makes no difference!

Yes he did pass Massa and Piquet; but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the pace to pass his team mate; after all they have identical cars (unless you're suggesting otherwise?). Kovalainen could have made it very hard for Hamilton to pass; I'm not saying that he couldn't have passed him, I am merely suggesting that Hamilton may not have been able to pass his team mate; we see it happen all the time; catching hand over fist until getting within a second then not being able to make further progress!

Look at the pit stop strategies they were on!

[myownalias]

Alias he passed massa and piquet without a problem did he not? When you're over a second faster than the cars infront dirty air makes no difference!

Yes he did pass Massa and Piquet; but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the pace to pass his team mate; after all they have identical cars (unless you're suggesting otherwise?). Kovalainen could have made it very hard for Hamilton to pass; I'm not saying that he couldn't have passed him, I am merely suggesting that Hamilton may not have been able to pass his team mate; we see it happen all the time; catching hand over fist until getting within a second then not being able to make further progress!

Look at the pit stop strategies they were on!

Pit stop strategy has nothing to do with whether one driver can overtake another driver; you just have to look back a week to Suzuka for evidence of that!

How many laps did Button hold up Hamilton?

[vaptin]

If he was sure to overtake him, why the use of team orders? Wasn't that what was said of Alonso, or as some other posters also felt strongly about - doesn't it rob us fans of the spectacle? I don't think Mclaren and Ferrari are that different really in going for the end result over getting there attractively.

[racechick]

Alias he passed massa and piquet without a problem did he not? When you're over a second faster than the cars infront dirty air makes no difference!

Yes he did pass Massa and Piquet; but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the pace to pass his team mate; after all they have identical cars (unless you're suggesting otherwise?). Kovalainen could have made it very hard for Hamilton to pass; I'm not saying that he couldn't have passed him, I am merely suggesting that Hamilton may not have been able to pass his team mate; we see it happen all the time; catching hand over fist until getting within a second then not being able to make further progress!

Look at the pit stop strategies they were on!

Pit stop strategy has nothing to do with whether one driver can overtake another driver; you just have to look back a week to Suzuka for evidence of that!

How many laps did Button hold up Hamilton?

Lots of laps. And no team orders.(Sorry Myownalis, that shout was not at you.) Not quite the same as differing strategies during the times of refuelling. If a driver was just out the pits or just going in they'd let each other by regularly. Not the same as drivers on the same strategy being forced to move over.