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[spankyham]

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me any less objective; it certainly doesn't make me a Ferrari hater. I used to like Ferrari when I started watching F1 back in 1992; but over the years for various reasons I have grown to dislike Ferrari for numerous incidents over the years. For the record I don't support any specific team!

You are not "less objective" because you disagree with me - you are not objective because you are biased - you said you don't like Ferrari. If there was a court case involving Ferrari, and you were up for jury duty, and you told the judge you don't like Ferrari - he'd throw you out. You can have an opinion (most Ferrari-haters do), but IMO you're not objective.

I believe their actions speak louder than any words; making the switch in Germany indicates that they don't believe the rules apply to them regardless of what they said after the race; $100,000; for a team like Ferrari that's not even worth appealing against; if they had lost all their Germany race points, I'm sure they'd appeal!

They believed they were conducting team tactics, they argued their case and lost. They accepted their punishment. Their punishment was found twice to be appropriate. You don't want to accept that - I wouldn't expect a Ferrari- disliker to accept that.

I don't agree with team orders but yes I would rather a team be covert and at least maintain the illusion that it didn't happen than have one driver pull aside for another. Basically the Germany incident was equivalent to Ferrari sticking two fingers up to the governing body.

As a Ferrari fan I've had my fill of being on the receiving end of covert cheating. We'll just agree to have separate views on that.
As to Ferrari thumbing their nose at the governing body, well, I guess if you're going to characterize every rule breach that way, then your being fair - but I don't recall hearing you describe Lewis as "thumbing his nose at the governing body" when he drove past the safety car - BTW it was his second infraction of passing a safety car.

Ferrari are a big part of F1 but not irreplaceable; they will be missed for a few season should they make good on their threat to leave; which they have done at least twice before. And I'm sure viewing figures will drop initially but they will recover; Ferrari are not Formula 1; and I wish that the FIA/FOM would grow some balls and stand up to them instead letting them get away with it; in regards to the team orders in Germany, they should have been found guilty at minimum of bringing the sport into disrepute and had points deducted at minimum. To use a everyday analogy; you're in traffic doing 80mph (10mph over the speed limit); and you get pulled over; "well, everyone else was doing it" as an excuse doesn't cut it; why should it be an excuse in F1? you're the one that has been stopped/caught and have to face the consequences. As I said before; if teams are proven to have used team orders this season; they they should have their points retroactively revoked; regardless of whether it's Ferrari; McLaren or Red Bull; or any other team, let's create a rule that dictates that if a team is caught cheating; they will instantly lose any points earned at that GP, simple, fines are no deterrent for the big teams!

I really have no idea what possible relevance your feeling that Ferrari is not irreplaceable to F1 could possibly have. Other than you just want to get rid of Ferrari cause you don't like them. If they do something wrong they get punished. If you don't think the punishment after two reviews and endless media trials was sufficient then why don't you stand for an FiA position on a "I don't like Ferrari" platform - get elected and then do your best to rid F1 of the Tifosi.

[What's Burning?]

I miss AKR.

[f1ea]

I miss AKR.

hehe
Good insight is always missed

[myownalias]

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me any less objective; it certainly doesn't make me a Ferrari hater. I used to like Ferrari when I started watching F1 back in 1992; but over the years for various reasons I have grown to dislike Ferrari for numerous incidents over the years. For the record I don't support any specific team!

You are not "less objective" because you disagree with me - you are not objective because you are biased - you said you don't like Ferrari. If there was a court case involving Ferrari, and you were up for jury duty, and you told the judge you don't like Ferrari - he'd throw you out. You can have an opinion (most Ferrari-haters do), but IMO you're not objective.

That statement in itself means that you are not objective either; you are biased towards Ferrari, therefore you can not be objective!

I believe their actions speak louder than any words; making the switch in Germany indicates that they don't believe the rules apply to them regardless of what they said after the race; $100,000; for a team like Ferrari that's not even worth appealing against; if they had lost all their Germany race points, I'm sure they'd appeal!

They believed they were conducting team tactics, they argued their case and lost. They accepted their punishment. Their punishment was found twice to be appropriate. You don't want to accept that - I wouldn't expect a Ferrari- disliker to accept that.

They could have conducted their "team tactics" in a more subtle way instead of making a mockery of the governing body and the sport.

I don't agree with team orders but yes I would rather a team be covert and at least maintain the illusion that it didn't happen than have one driver pull aside for another. Basically the Germany incident was equivalent to Ferrari sticking two fingers up to the governing body.

As a Ferrari fan I've had my fill of being on the receiving end of covert cheating. We'll just agree to have separate views on that.
As to Ferrari thumbing their nose at the governing body, well, I guess if you're going to characterize every rule breach that way, then your being fair - but I don't recall hearing you describe Lewis as "thumbing his nose at the governing body" when he drove past the safety car - BTW it was his second infraction of passing a safety car.

Actually I spoke out against Lewis Hamilton when he blatantly passed the safety car on this very forum, that was as much cheating as anything Ferrari have done!

Ferrari are a big part of F1 but not irreplaceable; they will be missed for a few season should they make good on their threat to leave; which they have done at least twice before. And I'm sure viewing figures will drop initially but they will recover; Ferrari are not Formula 1; and I wish that the FIA/FOM would grow some balls and stand up to them instead letting them get away with it; in regards to the team orders in Germany, they should have been found guilty at minimum of bringing the sport into disrepute and had points deducted at minimum. To use a everyday analogy; you're in traffic doing 80mph (10mph over the speed limit); and you get pulled over; "well, everyone else was doing it" as an excuse doesn't cut it; why should it be an excuse in F1? you're the one that has been stopped/caught and have to face the consequences. As I said before; if teams are proven to have used team orders this season; they they should have their points retroactively revoked; regardless of whether it's Ferrari; McLaren or Red Bull; or any other team, let's create a rule that dictates that if a team is caught cheating; they will instantly lose any points earned at that GP, simple, fines are no deterrent for the big teams!

I really have no idea what possible relevance your feeling that Ferrari is not irreplaceable to F1 could possibly have. Other than you just want to get rid of Ferrari cause you don't like them. If they do something wrong they get punished. If you don't think the punishment after two reviews and endless media trials was sufficient then why don't you stand for an FiA position on a "I don't like Ferrari" platform - get elected and then do your best to rid F1 of the Tifosi.

I never said I want to get rid of Ferrari; I do get fed up of Ferrari fans (in general) and their insistence that F1 would be nothing without Ferrari; Ferrari themselves seem to propagate that image with their disregard for rules and regulations; and want rules changed when it doesn't agree with their agenda! They were in full knowledge when ordering Massa to allow Alonso pass that it was breaking the rules of the sport, same as Lewis Hamilton knew that he was breaking the rules when he passed the safety car in Valencia.

We can go back and forth on this for decades; we'll just have to agree to disagree as I am not going to sway you towards my opinion or vice-versa!

[What's Burning?]

You do know that In a stalemate, Ferrari wins because they've been in the sport longer than anyone.

[myownalias]

You do know that In a stalemate, Ferrari wins because they've been in the sport longer than anyone.

[billindenver]

Basically the Germany incident was equivalent to Ferrari sticking two fingers up to the governing body.

Let's not forget that Ferrari did not chose to fo anything blatant and stupid as pulling over on a straight like that. Massa made that choice. His radio idiot screwed up pretty much everything else. It was the two of them that put their fingers in the air, not Ferrari. For all we know, Ferrari intended the pass to be as subtle as hamilton's on heikki or any of a dozen others in recent memory. The difference is, Massa threw a childish, brain damaged fit over it.

[racechick]

Basically the Germany incident was equivalent to Ferrari sticking two fingers up to the governing body.

Let's not forget that Ferrari did not chose to fo anything blatant and stupid as pulling over on a straight like that. Massa made that choice. His radio idiot screwed up pretty much everything else. It was the two of them that put their fingers in the air, not Ferrari. For all we know, Ferrari intended the pass to be as subtle as hamilton's on heikki or any of a dozen others in recent memory. The difference is, Massa threw a childish, brain damaged fit over it.

Heiki..... Hamilton......strategy.....different cant get over this one can you. You must have brought it up at least half a dozen times. Completely different situation. In the same situation last race. No switch was made by Mclaren.
Yes it was massa and Smedly putting their hands/fingers up at Ferarri's cheating. I dont blame them.

[bud]

haha I love it how some fools bring up Germany 08 like it is even close to what happened in Germany 2010. Heikki wasnt robbed of a win, Massa was! Heikki was lapping slower to Lewis, due to differing strategies. unlike Massa who wasnt slower than Alonso who were on the same strategy.

End of the day Heikki was in 4th place what was stopping him storming to the front like Hamilton did? Lewis passed Massa and Piquet afterwards Heikki stayed put. Were McLarens team orders for him to stay in 4th?

Please get a better argument. The only time McLaren have done something similar to Ferrari was in Australia 98. Im Surprised no ones really brought that up... Perhaps because it doesnt involve Hamilton. Seems some only want to post about him...

[Robert12010]

haha I love it how some fools bring up Germany 08 like it is even close to what happened in Germany 2010. Heikki wasnt robbed of a win, Massa was! Heikki was lapping slower to Lewis, due to differing strategies. unlike Massa who wasnt slower than Alonso who were on the same strategy.

End of the day Heikki was in 4th place what was stopping him storming to the front like Hamilton did? Lewis passed Massa and Piquet afterwards Heikki stayed put. Were McLarens team orders for him to stay in 4th?

Please get a better argument. The only time McLaren have done something similar to Ferrari was in Australia 98. Im Surprised no ones really brought that up... Perhaps because it doesnt involve Hamilton. Seems some only want to post about him...

[f1ea]

Please get a better argument. The only time McLaren have done something similar to Ferrari was in Australia 98. Im Surprised no ones really brought that up... Perhaps because it doesnt involve Hamilton. Seems some only want to post about him...

Perhaps because it was allowed then. People are only throwing tomatoes at Ferrari because "team orders" are banned now. Oh wait... they threw tomatoes even when they weren't banned. But anyway...

The arguments are as follows: Ferrari were found to break the rule, they paid a fine and were sent to the council. There wasn't a clear punishment written in the regs, and there hasn't been historic reference (from AFTER the rule has been in place) to put perspective into what the punishment should be (should have been).

If a certain team order happened under different conditions, makes no difference in the eyes of the "team order" rule. Ridiculous? yup.
Were the situations with Heikki/Massa different? yup. To the eyes of the rule? nope.

[bud]

Oh McLaren weren't popular with the fans in Melbourne that day, especially people who bet on DC to win!

But tell me was the rule brought in to stop teams switching places for the lead hindering a drivers result for the sake of another? or to stop teams using differing strategies with their 2 cars which ultimately require non interference between the 2 cars? Seems to me the rule is quite clear on what scenerio it's there for!

[f1ea]

Oh McLaren weren't popular with the fans in Melbourne that day, especially people who bet on DC to win!

But tell me was the rule brought in to stop teams switching places for the lead hindering a drivers result for the sake of another? or to stop teams using differing strategies with their 2 cars which ultimately require non interference between the 2 cars? Seems to me the rule is quite clear on what scenerio it's there for!

yeah... its not what people "like". But sometimes its a necessity for the sake of a greater benefit for the team. Just like an "intentional walk" in baseball, or a "ball freeze... intentional foul... clock burn etc" in basketball.

As for the rules being there for a reason... well, if what the rule wants is that drivers do not "swap" places... then they better write them so that it says actually that.

But then, can you swap places when the drivers are P4 and "fighting" for P1 or is it only bad when its P2 vs P1? what would be the difference? The strategy? Mark Webber was on a completely differnt strategy from evryone in Hungary, and won the race. So was Vettel in Monza. Was the pass from Webber a team order? should that be allowed, is that even allowed in the rules as they are? hmmm that was borderline... and yet, no big deal was made out of it. Was it because Vettel's engineer didnt make pity comments? or because the cameras never showed Vettel's pout?? or because they actually did have a mech issue?

[vaptin]

Oh McLaren weren't popular with the fans in Melbourne that day, especially people who bet on DC to win!

But tell me was the rule brought in to stop teams switching places for the lead hindering a drivers result for the sake of another? or to stop teams using differing strategies with their 2 cars which ultimately require non interference between the 2 cars? Seems to me the rule is quite clear on what scenerio it's there for!

Team orders that interfere with the race result

Sorry, where does it say its ok if they're on different strategies, it also hindered Hekki's result, no? He lost a place.

Not only that, but saying its ok as they were on different strategies, Ferrari had a strategy where Alonso was better placed to win the race as he was ahead of Massa in the WDC and really needed those extra points

[bud]

How can you say heikki lost a place? Lewis was 2 places ahead of him nothing was stopping him from overtaking Massa and Piquet! You Ferrari fans are weak, can't admit your team broke the rules and act like kids and point the finger at situations not even remotely similar to say "but miss they did it tooo"
What ever end of the day if a Redbull or McLaren driver win this years title atleast it won't be because they were helped by their team mate, thus a worthier winner than Alonso!