FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[AKR]

Ferrari isn't the only great car maker to be bought out by a compnay like Fiat. If you want to call a Ferrari a Fiat then you might as well call a Bugatti a Volkswagen or even a Porsche for that matter and a Saab a GM etc. Thats my point.

Fair enough, but this is not do with what I was originally hinting it. In the 1960s Ferrari were up s*** creek without a paddle and badly needed cash. Enzo Ferrari - wisely - sold the road car side of the business to FIAT in order to get financial backing.

The Tifosi need to wise up and realise that since 1969, Ferrari has been owned and bankrolled by a manufacturer.

And you McLaren Supporters need to wake up to the fact that McLaren without its part purchase by Mercedes would also be nowhere. I know that in the 13 or so years that the partnership with Mercedes has existed that McLaren have only won 3 WDC and 1 WCC, but if Ferrari were not in McLaren's way, McLaren would of dominated. And without Mercedes the fact is Mclaren too would be nowhere. And before that when McLaren were actually dominating they always were relying on theor engine partners. Ford, TAG-Porsche and especially Honda. Where would McLaren of been without them? Answer nowhere so if Ferrari tifosi need to realise that Ferrari has been and gotten to where it is because of Fiat then I guess McLaren too have gotten plnety of help from other companies it was and is partnered to as well.

[vintage]

Because I can't help but think about Ferrari and F1 everyday, I was looking at some facts. From an accurate site of course. Ferrari won 15 races in both 2002 and 2004. Previously I remembered this only for 2002 and thought 2004 that Ferrari had one less win. But in actual fact it was 15 wins in both season. McLaren did this in 1988 and only ever in that year. So Ferrari achieved thsi feat twice so as always Ferrari always does one better than McLaren.

i am in love with ferrari and they are for sure my team of choice but posts like this from other ferrari fans make me embarrassed. yes, the two of us dont like mclaren but do you really have to bring up facts like this for no reason? your just looking for an argument. i just hope other fans in f1 dont think fans of ferrari think this way to always degrade mclaren at every chance they get, to pull up obscure facts for no reason but to get a rise out of someone

[AKR]

Because I can't help but think about Ferrari and F1 everyday, I was looking at some facts. From an accurate site of course. Ferrari won 15 races in both 2002 and 2004. Previously I remembered this only for 2002 and thought 2004 that Ferrari had one less win. But in actual fact it was 15 wins in both season. McLaren did this in 1988 and only ever in that year. So Ferrari achieved thsi feat twice so as always Ferrari always does one better than McLaren.

i am in love with ferrari and they are for sure my team of choice but posts like this from other ferrari fans make me embarrassed. yes, the two of us dont like mclaren but do you really have to bring up facts like this for no reason? your just looking for an argument. i just hope other fans in f1 dont think fans of ferrari think this way to always degrade mclaren at every chance they get, to pull up obscure facts for no reason but to get a rise out of someone

McLaren Fan and I were just having a discussion. This is my way to have him teach me plenty of facts about McLaren. I know a lot about Ferrari and F1 but not about just McLaren. If I get a discussion like this going he, McLaren Fan who knows a lot about McLaren will say the facts about McLaren back and then I'll learn. This isn't just an argument for the sake of it. I am actually listening to what he has to say. Of course being myself if he says something about McLaren is actually better than Ferrari and it happens to be true, I am not exaxtly going to admit it. He knows that though. So chill out as there is nothing wrong here. Although regarding some of the other McLaren supporters, (Not McLaren Fan) they many times over bag Ferrari, like even start a Ferrari disenters thread. So in turn I have the right to speak back. Not my fault when that happens Mr Vintage. At least though I can see you have an excellent taste for cars. Nice.

[Gaz]

The whole reason Enzo Ferrari sold the road car division to FIAT was because he was strapped for cash.

Like most supercar makers have ended up. Sold to a bigger company. Ferrari went to Fiat, Maserati to Chrysler and then to Fiat, Lamborghini also to Chrysler, then to Megatech and then to Volkswagen. Jaguar to Ford and then to some Indian company. Aston Martin also to Ford and now back in the hands of some private Englishmen, Bentley in the hands of Volkswagen as well, Rolls Royce (Even though not an actual supercar) in the hands of BMW and it can go on and on. I do know that the situation with Porsche though is the other way around. Porsche actually owns most of Volkswagen. I previosuly thought it was the other way around. But then again both companies were founded by the same man, Ferdinand Porsche. So in effect if this is true and Porrsche owns almost all of Volkswagen, it would mean Porsche really also own Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Seat and Škoda. Also note of more supercar take overs. Audi (ex Auto Union and supercar and Grand Prix giants of the 30s like Alfa Romeo) in the hands of Volkswagen or Porsche. Bugatti, re-born in 1990s by Italian businessmen only to go bankrupt a few later to be reborn again with the funding of Volkswagen. Oh and while I am at it Fiat also owns Alfa Romeo and Lancia and GM Saab. Can go on and on..........

I know all of this. What's your point?

Ferrari isn't the only great car maker to be bought out by a compnay like Fiat. If you want to call a Ferrari a Fiat then you might as well call a Bugatti a Volkswagen or even a Porsche for that matter and a Saab a GM etc. Thats my point.

To be fair i started all that because you, started calling Mclaren - Mercades, Mclaren Fan is right tho you have been bankrolled by fiat.

Just as Mclaren have received financial baking via its shares and sponsors but Mclaren is still fully independent.

[AKR]

The whole reason Enzo Ferrari sold the road car division to FIAT was because he was strapped for cash.

Like most supercar makers have ended up. Sold to a bigger company. Ferrari went to Fiat, Maserati to Chrysler and then to Fiat, Lamborghini also to Chrysler, then to Megatech and then to Volkswagen. Jaguar to Ford and then to some Indian company. Aston Martin also to Ford and now back in the hands of some private Englishmen, Bentley in the hands of Volkswagen as well, Rolls Royce (Even though not an actual supercar) in the hands of BMW and it can go on and on. I do know that the situation with Porsche though is the other way around. Porsche actually owns most of Volkswagen. I previosuly thought it was the other way around. But then again both companies were founded by the same man, Ferdinand Porsche. So in effect if this is true and Porrsche owns almost all of Volkswagen, it would mean Porsche really also own Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Seat and Škoda. Also note of more supercar take overs. Audi (ex Auto Union and supercar and Grand Prix giants of the 30s like Alfa Romeo) in the hands of Volkswagen or Porsche. Bugatti, re-born in 1990s by Italian businessmen only to go bankrupt a few later to be reborn again with the funding of Volkswagen. Oh and while I am at it Fiat also owns Alfa Romeo and Lancia and GM Saab. Can go on and on..........

I know all of this. What's your point?

Ferrari isn't the only great car maker to be bought out by a compnay like Fiat. If you want to call a Ferrari a Fiat then you might as well call a Bugatti a Volkswagen or even a Porsche for that matter and a Saab a GM etc. Thats my point.

To be fair i started all that because you, started calling Mclaren - Mercades, Mclaren Fan is right tho you have been bankrolled by fiat.

Just as Mclaren have received financial baking via its shares and sponsors but Mclaren is still fully independent.

Ferrari may not be indepentent from Fiat, but Ferrari are allowed to do whatever they very much want and Fiat lets them. Just take a look at all the road cars Ferrari has brang out in the last 20 years. Look at the F1 cars in the last 10 years not to mention the F430 cars and Challenge cars and also those customer race cars. I don't think Fiat is or has ever held Ferrari back in anyway and has always seen Ferrari has their priority. I guess that is as good as being independent if not better because Ferrari still gets Fiat backing and funding (Even though Montezemolo says no funds come from Fiat).

Looking at other sports in which Fiat owned cars race in will show you that F1 and Ferrari are the priority. Lancia are the most successful WRC/Rally cars of all time. From 1987 to 1992 alone Lancia won 6 consectutive constructors title. Fiat then pulls Lancia out and concentrates more on touringcar racing with its Alfa Romeo cars. At this time Ferrari F1 cars were crap. Lancia cars in rally were the best, yet Fiat withdraws Lancia, a team that could of won even more and Ferrari stil remained in F1. Nowadays after the many successes Alfa Romeo have had, they I believe have withdrawn the works team from every major tourung car championship. Lancia may return to WRC in 2010 with a new Lancia Integrale. So this would mean Fiat has decided to pull the plug on touring cars and return to rally. Already Fiat races in lower rallys like the ERC and IRC and national championships with the Abarth Punto. And surprise, surprise, Alfa's a nowhere in touring cars. But in F1 Ferrari is always there getting maximum support from Fiat. So Ferrari and F1 are always Fiat's priority and this clearly shows the benefits. Yes I think that is even better than being independent.

[Gaz]

The whole reason Enzo Ferrari sold the road car division to FIAT was because he was strapped for cash.

Like most supercar makers have ended up. Sold to a bigger company. Ferrari went to Fiat, Maserati to Chrysler and then to Fiat, Lamborghini also to Chrysler, then to Megatech and then to Volkswagen. Jaguar to Ford and then to some Indian company. Aston Martin also to Ford and now back in the hands of some private Englishmen, Bentley in the hands of Volkswagen as well, Rolls Royce (Even though not an actual supercar) in the hands of BMW and it can go on and on. I do know that the situation with Porsche though is the other way around. Porsche actually owns most of Volkswagen. I previosuly thought it was the other way around. But then again both companies were founded by the same man, Ferdinand Porsche. So in effect if this is true and Porrsche owns almost all of Volkswagen, it would mean Porsche really also own Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Seat and Škoda. Also note of more supercar take overs. Audi (ex Auto Union and supercar and Grand Prix giants of the 30s like Alfa Romeo) in the hands of Volkswagen or Porsche. Bugatti, re-born in 1990s by Italian businessmen only to go bankrupt a few later to be reborn again with the funding of Volkswagen. Oh and while I am at it Fiat also owns Alfa Romeo and Lancia and GM Saab. Can go on and on..........

I know all of this. What's your point?

Ferrari isn't the only great car maker to be bought out by a compnay like Fiat. If you want to call a Ferrari a Fiat then you might as well call a Bugatti a Volkswagen or even a Porsche for that matter and a Saab a GM etc. Thats my point.

To be fair i started all that because you, started calling Mclaren - Mercades, Mclaren Fan is right tho you have been bankrolled by fiat.

Just as Mclaren have received financial baking via its shares and sponsors but Mclaren is still fully independent.

Ferrari may not be indepentent from Fiat, but Ferrari are allowed to do whatever they very much want and Fiat lets them. Just take a look at all the road cars Ferrari has brang out in the last 20 years. Look at the F1 cars in the last 10 years not to mention the F430 cars and Challenge cars and also those customer race cars. I don't think Fiat is or has ever held Ferrari back in anyway and has always seen Ferrari has their priority. I guess that is as good as being independent if not better because Ferrari still gets Fiat backing and funding (Even though Montezemolo says no funds come from Fiat).

Looking at other sports in which Fiat owned cars race in will show you that F1 and Ferrari are the priority. Lancia are the most successful WRC/Rally cars of all time. From 1987 to 1992 alone Lancia won 6 consectutive constructors title. Fiat then pulls Lancia out and concentrates more on touringcar racing with its Alfa Romeo cars. At this time Ferrari F1 cars were crap. Lancia cars in rally were the best, yet Fiat withdraws Lancia, a team that could of won even more and Ferrari stil remained in F1. Nowadays after the many successes Alfa Romeo have had, they I believe have withdrawn the works team from every major tourung car championship. Lancia may return to WRC in 2010 with a new Lancia Integrale. So this would mean Fiat has decided to pull the plug on touring cars and return to rally. Already Fiat races in lower rallys like the ERC and IRC and national championships with the Abarth Punto. And surprise, surprise, Alfa's a nowhere in touring cars. But in F1 Ferrari is always there getting maximum support from Fiat. So Ferrari and F1 are always Fiat's priority and this clearly shows the benefits. Yes I think that is even better than being independent.

I can assure you of this FIATs top priority is not F1 its making money and keeping the share holders happy

[EwanM]

lol there were rumours years ago that Ferrari were going to be sold to VW.
That would have been funny re badging the team a Skoda.

And I mean old Skoda. They would work - engine was in the rear and all.

[McLaren Fan]

And you McLaren Supporters need to wake up to the fact that McLaren without its part purchase by Mercedes would also be nowhere. I know that in the 13 or so years that the partnership with Mercedes has existed that McLaren have only won 3 WDC and 1 WCC, but if Ferrari were not in McLaren's way, McLaren would of dominated. And without Mercedes the fact is Mclaren too would be nowhere. And before that when McLaren were actually dominating they always were relying on theor engine partners. Ford, TAG-Porsche and especially Honda. Where would McLaren of been without them? Answer nowhere so if Ferrari tifosi need to realise that Ferrari has been and gotten to where it is because of Fiat then I guess McLaren too have gotten plnety of help from other companies it was and is partnered to as well.

What a load of rubbish! McLaren could have survived perfectly well with bringing Mercedes on board. All the team needed to do was find a decent engine supplier to get things going again. As things were, though, Ron Dennis made the right call, for he knew he would not be around for ever, so the future of the team needed to be safeguarded for the future. Enzo Ferrari, however, was bricking it, trying every sleight of hand to boost Ferrari's share price and get cash pumped into the team. To remind you, I (and other McLaren supporters on here) have said that I'm not worried about McLaren being more of an international team and having an element of "garagiste"-manufacturer hybridity. I accept that and deal with it. The tifosi, however, are the most arrogant bar stewards in Formula One history: Ferrari is self-funded, Ferrari is the most passionate team around, Ferrari doesn't have new facilities like McLaren, and so on and so forth. It's complete trash! Get over yourselves.

[EwanM]

And you McLaren Supporters need to wake up to the fact that McLaren without its part purchase by Mercedes would also be nowhere. I know that in the 13 or so years that the partnership with Mercedes has existed that McLaren have only won 3 WDC and 1 WCC, but if Ferrari were not in McLaren's way, McLaren would of dominated. And without Mercedes the fact is Mclaren too would be nowhere. And before that when McLaren were actually dominating they always were relying on theor engine partners. Ford, TAG-Porsche and especially Honda. Where would McLaren of been without them? Answer nowhere so if Ferrari tifosi need to realise that Ferrari has been and gotten to where it is because of Fiat then I guess McLaren too have gotten plnety of help from other companies it was and is partnered to as well.

What a load of rubbish! McLaren could have survived perfectly well with bringing Mercedes on board. All the team needed to do was find a decent engine supplier to get things going again. As things were, though, Ron Dennis made the right call, for he knew he would not be around for ever, so the future of the team needed to be safeguarded for the future. Enzo Ferrari, however, was bricking it, trying every sleight of hand to boost Ferrari's share price and get cash pumped into the team. To remind you, I (and other McLaren supporters on here) have said that I'm not worried about McLaren being more of an international team and having an element of "garagiste"-manufacturer hybridity. I accept that and deal with it. The tifosi, however, are the most arrogant bar stewards in Formula One history: Ferrari is self-funded, Ferrari is the most passionate team around, Ferrari doesn't have new facilities like McLaren, and so on and so forth. It's complete trash! Get over yourselves.

The very fact that it owns 2 test tracks to the other teams zero, speaks for itself.

[vintage]

Because I can't help but think about Ferrari and F1 everyday, I was looking at some facts. From an accurate site of course. Ferrari won 15 races in both 2002 and 2004. Previously I remembered this only for 2002 and thought 2004 that Ferrari had one less win. But in actual fact it was 15 wins in both season. McLaren did this in 1988 and only ever in that year. So Ferrari achieved thsi feat twice so as always Ferrari always does one better than McLaren.

i am in love with ferrari and they are for sure my team of choice but posts like this from other ferrari fans make me embarrassed. yes, the two of us dont like mclaren but do you really have to bring up facts like this for no reason? your just looking for an argument. i just hope other fans in f1 dont think fans of ferrari think this way to always degrade mclaren at every chance they get, to pull up obscure facts for no reason but to get a rise out of someone

McLaren Fan and I were just having a discussion. This is my way to have him teach me plenty of facts about McLaren. I know a lot about Ferrari and F1 but not about just McLaren. If I get a discussion like this going he, McLaren Fan who knows a lot about McLaren will say the facts about McLaren back and then I'll learn. This isn't just an argument for the sake of it. I am actually listening to what he has to say. Of course being myself if he says something about McLaren is actually better than Ferrari and it happens to be true, I am not exaxtly going to admit it. He knows that though. So chill out as there is nothing wrong here. Although regarding some of the other McLaren supporters, (Not McLaren Fan) they many times over bag Ferrari, like even start a Ferrari disenters thread. So in turn I have the right to speak back. Not my fault when that happens Mr Vintage. At least though I can see you have an excellent taste for cars. Nice.

while i appreciate the last part of your paragraph i would still have to say this argument your making is bs. if you really wanted to learn facts from Mclaren fan you would possibly pm him or even ask the question you wanted an answer for. possibly look online yourself or read mclaren-mercedes books (im sure theres plenty) not start saying how great ferrari is over mclaren. i wouldnt think it right to end a first post in a "discussion" by saying, "McLaren did this in 1988 and only ever in that year. So Ferrari achieved this feat twice so as always Ferrari always does one better than McLaren." it shows you honestly dont care about mclaren and just want to start something with other members here. your right, you have a right to speak back but dont stoop down to their level such as when they are constantly pissed and convinced that the stewards are out to get hamilton. cmon we are ferrari supporters, lets show some class and take the high road. if there are important facts such as when the season gets closer and ferrari are blowing the competition away, then we can bring it up, lets not dwell in the past. lets start gloating about ferrari accomplishments in 2009 when ferrari wins the WDC and WCC.

[McLaren Fan]

The very fact that it owns 2 test tracks to the other teams zero, speaks for itself.

Aye, that's right. FIAT paid for those.

[8-ball]

I have to say that this is the most interesting forum discussion I have read in a long time.

Here is my two cents. Ferrari is owned by Fiat but I say so what. As long as nobody from Fiat interferes with the F1 team then Ferrari as just as much independent as McLaren. McLaren needed an engine and Mercedes was ready and willing. Ron made a good move to secure the competitive nature of McLaren just as Enzo made a good move to make sure the Ferrari business didn't go down.

I personally think that the Ferrari set up where they are owned by a major car manufacturer works best, as Ferrari will never be short of funds. A much better option to truly safegaurd the future of McLaren is to let Mercedes buy them outright but still keep the name McLaren-Mercedes.

[scotty]

The very fact that it owns 2 test tracks to the other teams zero, speaks for itself.

Aye, that's right. FIAT paid for those.

Just a thought: how are the testing milage limits imposed properly on Ferrari when they own their own test track, and could easily get some testing done 'under the radar'?

Hope this isn't stirring the pot...

[McLaren Fan]

Oh, I forgot to mention earlier, McLaren do have a circuit:

http://www.lyddenhill.co.uk//



It would have been a private test venue, but the FIA et al. said no.

[AKR]

The very fact that it owns 2 test tracks to the other teams zero, speaks for itself.

Aye, that's right. FIAT paid for those.

Who cares, they are all one big happy family with plenty of tracks, cars and hopefully money.