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[bud]

Lack of morals in modern society cannot solely be linked to religious decline, I was raised with morals but I was never baptized never went to church, it solely rest on the parents upbringing. Having religion to fall on for morals is a weak excuse, knowing right from wrong is not hard to know nor pass on to your children.
If you want religious morals then how about every war in history being fought with the righteous religious view that they were doing the right thing.

[McLaren]

Knowing right from wrong has nothing to do with religion.Look how many priests get done for kiddie fiddling.The church is probably one of the most corrupt things in the world,covering up all their wrongs.
I've never been baptised either but I still know right from wrong,thanks to good parenting and upbringing.

[Hamilonso]

Lack of morals in modern society cannot solely be linked to religious decline, I was raised with morals but I was never baptized never went to church, it solely rest on the parents upbringing. Having religion to fall on for morals is a weak excuse, knowing right from wrong is not hard to know nor pass on to your children.
If you want religious morals then how about every war in history being fought with the righteous religious view that they were doing the right thing.

So thats you and a Mrs Racechick that has again misread. Nobody here has put lack of morals SOLELY to lack of religiousness, nobody, where is that even implied let alone said? Just because there a few and far between people that are good characters that arent religious, doesnt make this whole thing a moot point, what kind of logic is that? Im not religious, im morally righteous, religion creating morals is now void. Erm ok.....?

Im thinking Vietnam war, lack of religious conflict
WW2, lack of religious conflict.
WW1, lack of religious conflict
Korean War, lack of religious conflict.
American Civil War, lack of religious conflict

Funnily enough the worst two dictators in history, Stalin and Hitler were known to be feircely anti- religious people.

Most wars are fought on the grounds of nationalistic land grabbing or resource containment, not religion.

[bud]

Persecution of the Jews had nothing to do with religion? You for real?

Most wars are fought on the grounds of nationalistic land grabbing or resource containment, not religion.

The wars you've listed span 200 years I am talking throughout human history which is much longer than this. But even then the underlying truths of such wars for example the American civil war, a war basically fought over slavery which they claimed the black man inferior to them, I'm sure just as the kkk after them would use their religion as their righteous path in fighting what they believed to be right. Again religious upbringing where are their morals?

[What's Burning?]

let's stay on topic shall we?

There's a religion thread or two here that this can be taken over to if you really want to discuss it.

[Hamilonso]

Persecution of the Jews had nothing to do with religion? You for real?

Most wars are fought on the grounds of nationalistic land grabbing or resource containment, not religion.

The wars you've listed span 200 years I am talking throughout human history which is much longer than this. But even then the underlying truths of such wars for example the American civil war, a war basically fought over slavery which they claimed the black man inferior to them, I'm sure just as the kkk after them would use their religion as their righteous path in fighting what they believed to be right. Again religious upbringing where are their morals?

Erm bud my friend, WW2 didnt start or end on the basis of Jewish persecution, it started cause a collaboration of countries told Germany not to invade Czech, let them go for it,and when they did it to Poland, They were treaty bound to defend it.

The wars ive listed prove your point of all wars as religion based as invalid thats what the wars i listed did, i can ponder a guess that well over 20 million at a rough estimate in human history have died over land grabbing then religion.

Again religious upbringing where are their morals

ERRR, AGAIN, nobody said religious upbringing gave you dead cert moral righteousness, ive only ever said it was more likely.

[Hamilonso]

I think we'll have to amiably agree to end the discussion as its not on topic (my fault i think ) and debated enough.


Plus theres a moderator involved now, deadly serious..........

[andrew]

*cough*Moderatorpostedamessageingreenwriting*cough*

[racechick]

Back on topic, back on topic boys. Whitmarsh Grrr!

[racechick]

I want to start by saying, THIS IS NOT HAVING A GO AT JENSON . I just want to explore the way jenson has built this team around him and is this what is upsetting Lewis?
Lewis has never really been bothered by a team mate-he knows he can drive faster so has left everything to his performance on the track. It worked with Alonso and he saw him off. Alonso arrived expecting number one status and didnt get it. He was then blown away and pissed off by lewis' speed.
Jenson played a much more subtle game; he admitted lewis had the edge on speed but set about beating him by building McLaren around him. He began by insisting on reasurances that this was not lewis' team, which Whitmarsh has bent over backwards to aknowledge. He surrounded himslef with friends, family and supporters (see the video in the lewis hamilton Supporters thread).
He rememebred a lesson a team principle (Dave Richards i think) told him about building the team around him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q_8N_L1mmI
Furthermore Jenson has admitted he has courted McLaren mechanics and engineers and that he is the one being listened to on car development.
http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/09/13/is-bu ... t-mclaren/
Now Jenson likes a nice compliant car that behaves itself. lewis likes a beast that he can tame, but which ultimately has more pace. Jenson cant cope with oversteer, lewis thrives on it. So?
Is this why lewis is glum? He's never bothtered to play the political games (I dont imagine he would be any good at it if he tried)He just wants to drive cars very fast and with supreme skill. But recently he's said 'Im not driving well, I need to improve, but thats something I can do' (implying there are things over which he has no control) So is he realising that there are things at play here that his phenomenal talent cannot compete against? This would explain his depressed state.
I say again, no dig at jenson here, he's seen an opportunity and played it to is advantage.

[Hamilonso]

My question is.......what is your question Racechick?


Jensons a superb driver, proved it, if he beats Lewis this year it will be the biggest feather bar winning a title he could earn favouritism or not. Its SUCH a shame he peaked so late, i hate it when drivers lose years like that, Kobayashi was lucky to get a chance i think hes 25 or 26 now, and only just started. I dont like Jensons personality ill get that out there, i think hes a sneaky caniving little runt, with a cocky attitude too match. But hes talented as hell and he knows what to do, infact if i didnt find him such a crooner id support him. Lewis will be back to normal service soon enough but Button coming on top this year is entirely deserved, problem is i support Lewis so i dont want the team focused on Button or building a car for Button, Lewis is where the money and association is at and hes more likely to get you a title through sheer speed and audacity then Button, but i dont know if i like the direction Mclaren are going with the partnership at the moment. Im giving it some time........

[racechick]

My question was, 'Is this whats bugging Lewis?' Fait accompli?
I agree,Jenson is far more coniving than Lewis, thats what i was saying. lewis cant do that. Obviously jens is a very good driver. But........ yep, all the other stuff you said.

[Hamilonso]

I dont know tbh, its so hair-pullingly frustrating to work out, possibly because we cant, what is up with Lewis. The list is endless, perhaps its a combination, but im sure whatever it is, next year if not the remainder of this one he'll be back to form.

Hope Mclaren bring something worthwhile as i do Ferrari for Alonso next year, ill be damned if "Wunderkind" walks another casual title.

[racechick]

But if its designed round Jenson?

[myownalias]

What Jenson has done is what Michael Schumacher has done on the past, completely integrate himself within the team. Lewis on the other hand (from an outside point of view) seems to just demand a faster car without putting the hard work into developing a faster car, this may not be the case as I am not within the team, just a theory I have come up with from watching from afar!