FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[racechick]

I was very vociferous about the negative affects Button had on the McLaren team last year ..and earlier. I'm not so bothered what happens now because Lewis is away and no longer affected. Whitmarsh, I can't help but feel he's a very nice man. Lewis always speaks highly of him and fondly. When Lewis alludes to negative forces that impacted adversely on him ( I'm putting that nicely ), he is often at pains to offer his support to Whitmarsh and rule him out. But Whitmarsh has to take some responsibility because he presided over all this, and ultimately it was his decision where to lay the support and in which direction to take the team. He now has to reap the fruits of those decisions..
Had Lewis stayed, maybe the McLaren would have evolved differently, or maybe to the despair of Lowe it wouldn't. But I'd wager big money that had Lewis remained, McLaren would be further up the points table than they are and they would have retained that magnificent record of point scoring finishes....Lewis would have had that McLaren well in the points at Canada.

[1Lemon]

Rant warning

Had Lewis stayed, the car would still be awful. They would have already made the plans to the car, and we are seeing that car that was designed whilst Lewis still drove for them. There may be subtle differences, but honestly him leaving, no matter how much people want it to be, was not what has made McLaren so bad this year. The design strategy was a bit strange, completely changing the car rather than evolving, but if you think that they were evolving the 2012 car, then Lewis left and someone thought "Now Lewis has gone, let's build a whole new car !!!" then your a bit deluded.

Lewis has left McLaren, he did not cause nor would he prevent the mild disaster of this season for McLaren, they will bounce back they always seem to do that, but perhaps they are just waiting for next year. Whitmarsh in my opinion has made some very strange decisions in the run-up to this year, but he obviously isn't the only one to blame here, maybe management have got a bit to sidetracked with their car business.

Lewis would have had that McLaren well in the points at Canada.

How could you possibly know that? Please stop using your opinion as facts (It's not a personal dig at you RC, but I've noticed a lot of fans doing this and it's always annoyed me).

Lewis's departing may have hurt the team, but he is not a god that upon leaving made everyone spend half their working days sobbing so they were incapable of working; he is not the root of the issue. I also really shouldn't even need to be talking about Hamilton in a McLaren thread because he doesn't drive for them anymore. Maybe I'll go to the Torro Rosso thread and start up a conversation about how losing Vettel has hurt them because they haven't even won a race since he left...

[racechick]

Hey hang on there, don't just quote half my post!! I said ID WAGER BIG MONEY Lewis would have had the McLaren in the points at Canada. How is me saying I'd make a wager suddenly turned into me giving my opinions as facts??

Had Lewis left you say, the car would still be awful. Possibly, probably, but you don't know that. Now your stating your opinions as facts. And there's no way I was suggesting they completely redesigned the car when Lewis left. I said MAYBE IT WOULD HAVE EVOLVED DIFFERENTLY MAYBE IT WOULDN'T. So read what I wrote before calling me deluded.
And finally, there's no way I was sobbing when Lewis left McLaren, I was cheering.

[CookinFlat6]

Lewis would have had that McLaren well in the points at Canada.

How could you possibly know that? Please stop using your opinion as facts (It's not a personal dig at you RC, but I've noticed a lot of fans doing this and it's always annoyed me).

Simple logic supports RCs assertion as close to fact as can be got

Lewis LAPPED Button last year. Lewis was normally almost 1/2 a sec ahead in qualy on average.

This year if he had been half a sec quicker in qualy he would not have started outside the top ten. McLarens fastest lap was not midfield, it was respectable. The 2 stop strategy was the fastest route at Canada. starting further up the grid would have allowed Lewis (or Sergio) to make the strategy work better than it did

Therefore I am happy to conclude that Lewis would have got points at Canada

like RC said

they will bounce back they always seem to do that, but perhaps they are just waiting for next year.

Now that sounds deluded in that it is a generalisation based on the past and with no understanding of the current context

They always bounce back? When they have not lost the best engine and are facing a season of disengagement by Mercedes. When they lost many top engineers over a few years? When they have the 2 best drivers on the grid? When they have a team principal with proven success?

Put it this way, has there been any sign of a bounce yet? Do you think next year is a great candidate for bounce back? when the top teams are well into 2014 already. Do you think 2015 is the candidate for bounce back? How many engine manufactures have hit the ground running and had a perfect engine in year one?

(btw I am not saying they will not regain former status at some point in future, but BOUNCEBACK by implication means an almost immediate recovery, which is why i mentioned delusion, no offence)

[What's Burning?]

Oh snap that's right. The McLaren run of races in the points is over.

[Hammer278]

Oh snap that's right. The McLaren run of races in the points is over.

You never even noticed...maybe because they were buried somewhere in the midfield the entire race.

[LewEngBridewell]

So many people hate McLaren in this thread

[NHcheese]

They said that their new updates did not suit this track and that is the worst excuse I have ever heard. and whoever said something about their road car is also not a fair point because they have seperate teams working on each car. Current. Road. Future season.

[PartsaS]

If I was in Martins shoes, I would throw mp4-28 and everything that has to do with that toaster to the garbage. I would borrow every aerodynamic aspect I could from mp4-27, I would use good old pushrod susp. and I would start development from now - there is no point putting efforts and money on this joke of a car, since every improvement you make the others will always be 2 or three steps ahead.
I remember the excitement I had last fall, for the new season to begin... who would have thought, people in high places within the team would be so stupid to gamble, when they already had everything. %&%@&#%$@#@@%#&&#@@#$*&$&$%&#

Are you that naive? I can't believe people are saying "scrap the 28, bring back the 27!!!" hell if they do that, you'll see the McLaren struggling to beat Caterham! Like it or not the 28 is an improvement over the 27 by now, but its just not as big as they'd like. There's nothing they can go back to, even if they wanted....it was just a major f**k up trying to be too smart this year for no reasons, especially when everything changes next year all over again.

I didn't say bring back the mp4-27, I said I would borrow the aerodynamics that worked last year to next years car. Stop developing this years toaster, and concentrate to 2014...
Caterham.... really? I strongly believe even with all the development mp4-28 is not an improvement to last year car,can't you see it is almost undriveable through some tracks, Both drivers have said it has weird ride, unusable grip, and ''all over the place'' balance. Mp4-27 would still be faster than Force India. (imo).
It is not that Force India has done such huge improvements since Brazil, it is just McLaren's free fall to the bottom that ''highlighted'' F.I.'s Pace. (and others as well)

Not necessarily.

Let's imagine that the pull-rod suspension they've switched to, like Ferrari, is going to be more commonplace from next year onwards. Like Ferrari, McLaren will already have gone through the painful year of dealing with the problems and can then start on the road to turning it into a winner. Other teams will have to make the switch and risk going through the same thing, but these two teams are ahead. Given that they stated they'd pretty much got everything that they could out of the design route they'd taken with the last car, making a change now rather than when the new regulations came in made sense, as it gives them the potential to try out a bunch of new things in advance and take advantage of that when the regulations change. There are really two ways this can go. If McLaren win one or both of the championships next year, nobody will remember 2013. If they end up fighting with Force India again, then they will and the negative comments will continue.

McL and Ferrari will have an advantage over others only if Pullrod will be the system all teams will be using in 2014.But I don't think anyone else will try it in 2014, if the rules don't say so(Correct me if I am wrong)... I can name at least 3 cars with pushrod which are faster overall than ferrari's 2nd year run of the pullrod...So why not adapt good old pushrod to the 2014 cars?

Furthermore how could we think about winning next year, since McL has stated that they have held develop n research for 2014 and staff have been pulled from the 2014 project to concentrate on hammering out the faults in the 2013 car. That means in 2014 we will probably be behind others, again.
Imo they should use this season as a ''test'' and get their attention at the next years car.

[NHcheese]

I think the suspension is the problem.

[What's Burning?]

I think the suspension is the problem.

You'd be even more correct if you made a broader statement.

[1Lemon]

I think the suspension is the problem.

You'd be even more correct if you made a broader statement.

Problem is car.

Anyway, addressing RC and Cookin'Flat6 I think we are all a bit guilty of using our opinion as facts I.E

When they have not lost the best engine and are facing a season of disengagement by Mercedes.

Is that why the teams in the top of the standings are on Renault or Ferrari Power Units?

I think a misunderstanding by bounce back, I don't expect them to improve this season that dramatically, or even in the next, but eventually they'll be back, considering their commitment; just as I feel the same about Williams.

And again, these conversations always seem to end up as Button V Hamilton. I didn't mention Jenson once, so bringing him up is irrelevant.

Therefore I am happy to conclude that Lewis would have got points at Canada

So you can guarantee he wouldn't have crashed? Or wouldn't have had a particularly bad race? And as we know Lewis was always a faster qualifier than Button (If we have to bring this argument AGAIN into these conversations) but Button often had faster race pace, not all the time and not significantly, but Hamilton qualified more times in front of Jenson over finishing in front of him (I read that statistic a few months back but I can't remember where). Lewis gives some amasing quali laps, this is something Button has never been that good at.

And finally, there's no way I was sobbing when Lewis left McLaren, I was cheering.

I didn't mean you were sobbing (I was well aware you were partying) I meant the engineers and designers carried on, and didn't all take a week off to take stock of what has happened. Meaning that I don't attribute Hamilton's departure to the teams crap-atude.

[myownalias]

So in conclusion:

• The McLaren is an awful car and seemingly getting worse.
• It's Jenson Button's fault because he is not the god of development Lewis Hamilton.

Does that about cover it?

[What's Burning?]

Well I wouldn't go as far as that... but the Mclaren is a pretty awful car at the moment. 2014 may bring more of the same. I hope not because unless McLaren and Ferrari are strong, Vettel will be a 8 time WDC in liketty split time.

[racechick]

So in conclusion:

• The McLaren is an awful car and seemingly getting worse.
• It's Jenson Button's fault because he is not the god of development Lewis Hamilton.

Does that about cover it?

Hamilton is no god of development, but probably easier to develop around. Maybe. Well Lowe sort of said that ages ago.