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[vaptin]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

No They aren't. Simple as.

See, this thread is as fun as I expected.

Two teams getting together to do it is wrong, a team doing it to throw away their chances is wrong, but two drivers within the same team? Team strategy, their business, up to them how they manage it.

Teams make the call because they think it gives them an advantage, and it isn't an "unfair or unnatural" advantage, all teams have (or at least have the chance to) two racing drivers. One driver doesn't want to move over? Tough, same as if one driver refuses a pitstop or strategy call.

I'm talking from the current perspective, in the context of Jenson's comments, which is with team orders legal.

[Jensonb]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

[vaptin]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

You want race results to be drawn out of a hat?

[darwin dali]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Hm, awfully big words. How about the manipulation of the diffuser through which your hero got the world title, eh?

[Jensonb]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Hm, awfully big words. How about the manipulation of the diffuser through which your hero got the world title, eh?

That's great, let's equate cynically manipulating race results to using aerodynamics in racing cars. Cos those are completely the same thing. Yep. Using aerodynamics in a racing car?! MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE.

You simply must be joking. Nobody could be that stupid.

[bud]

You want race results to be drawn out of a hat?

yeah that would be more interesting than seeing a race leader pull over for his team mate in 2nd place.

[spankyham]

Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

I think this is far more of an issue with some fans and media (feeding on those fans emotions). Jenson is just being smart and using this emotion and the guaranteed media attention any statement containing the words "team" and "order" will get.

Historically Team Orders were always there, and far more blatant than anything we've seen in the 21st century.

The dynamic that's changed is that in F1's more recent history a significant number of fans follow a driver primarily rather than a team.

It always bring a smile to my face when I wonder how's today's media and fans would have reacted to Fangio taking over the other team car to win a race. Can you imagine that happening in your favourite team nowadays?

[darwin dali]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Hm, awfully big words. How about the manipulation of the diffuser through which your hero got the world title, eh?

That's great, let's equate cynically manipulating race results to using aerodynamics in racing cars. Cos those are completely the same thing. Yep. Using aerodynamics in a racing car?! MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE.

You simply must be joking. Nobody could be that stupid.

Ah, nice euphemism: using aerodynamics in racing cars. I maintain it was a manipulation of the technical regs - I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it. But it was a manipulation of the race outcome nonetheless.
And I'm not saying they shouldn't use team orders either

And BTW: you are rather quick at plastering this place with your own judgments such as cynical, morally reprehensible and stupid. You will learn in life that this kind of behavior is generally not much appreciated. Let it not be me who has to teach you this.

[Jensonb]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Hm, awfully big words. How about the manipulation of the diffuser through which your hero got the world title, eh?

That's great, let's equate cynically manipulating race results to using aerodynamics in racing cars. Cos those are completely the same thing. Yep. Using aerodynamics in a racing car?! MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE.

You simply must be joking. Nobody could be that stupid.

Ah, nice euphemism: using aerodynamics in racing cars. I maintain it was a manipulation of the technical regs - I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it. But it was a manipulation of the race outcome nonetheless.
And I'm not saying they shouldn't use team orders either

And BTW: you are rather quick at plastering this place with your own judgments such as cynical, morally reprehensible and stupid. You will learn in life that this kind of behavior is generally not much appreciated. Let it not be me who has to teach you this.

If you make a stupid analogy, I'm going to tell you it's stupid. It's not really my problem if that upsets you. You could easily exercise the option not to say stupid things.

Team Orders are inherently cynical. It's not a judgment.

[spankyham]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Trying to win is manipulating the outcome, is that race fixing also?

A soccer player passing the ball to his team-mate in a better position to score - he's trying to manipulate the outcome, is that game fixing?

A coach or manager praising players for passing and assisting other team mates to score - is that also match fixing?

[Hammer278]

I like how Jenson is suddenly so vocal and keeps bleating on about team orders and how bad it is.

Perhaps he knows who his teammate is, and is afraid McLaren might 'convert' to the dark side and is repeatedly voicing out how bad it is to keep McLaren honest.

[texasmr2]

If you make a stupid analogy, I'm going to tell you it's stupid. It's not really my problem if that upsets you. You could easily exercise the option not to say stupid things.

So could you .

[bud]

Trying to win is manipulating the outcome, is that race fixing also?

A soccer player passing the ball to his team-mate in a better position to score - he's trying to manipulate the outcome, is that game fixing?

A coach or manager praising players for passing and assisting other team mates to score - is that also match fixing?

I dont see the comparison there. A team sport where their goal is for the team to win the game is different to motorsports even if there are teams with two cars, their drivers once out on track are in affect racing each other thus are competitors.
So for one driver to pull over for another, same coloured car or not.. is giving up his purpose for being on the track and the purpose of sport in general by saying to a competitor you can have this, i give up.

[Hammer278]

Trying to win is manipulating the outcome, is that race fixing also?

A soccer player passing the ball to his team-mate in a better position to score - he's trying to manipulate the outcome, is that game fixing?

A coach or manager praising players for passing and assisting other team mates to score - is that also match fixing?

I dont see the comparison there. A team sport where their goal is for the team to win the game is different to motorsports even if there are teams with two cars, their drivers once out on track are in affect racing each other thus are competitors.
So for one driver to pull over for another, same coloured car or not.. is giving up his purpose for being on the track and the purpose of sport in general by saying to a competitor you can have this, i give up.

Mate, F1 is a team sport as well...

You can never call team orders illegal. Never. You can only respect a team more if they give equal opportunity to their drivers until 1 is mathematically out of it. If a team decides to play ruthless, it is not wrong. This is the problem the FIA face and everyone involved, in fact.

Redbull were a class act last season. They stood their ground, with everything to lose by letting their drivers race till the end and won out in the end. There is no better way to show sportsmanship and managing a racing team. Yes, they had more drama than required but you don't see anyone berating Vettel for his WDC, unlike all those WDCs Michael won with Ferrari!

Michael's WDCs still stand. But compared to Vettels in 2010? Uncomparable in my view.

[Hansy]

You simply must be joking. Nobody could be that stupid.

You'd be surprised...