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[What's Burning?]

I'm stating that what is nonsensical is to compare an F1 team to a typical sports team.

As long as there is a WDC both of the drivers for a given "team" will have aspirations of winning that WDC a fact leads to an erosion of an F1 "team".

That alone will be conducive to a driver a pit crew, mechanics, race engineers pulling for their driver first and the "team" second.

So the idea of a team in every sense of the word only applies to the constructor.

[vaptin]

I'm stating that what is nonsensical is to compare an F1 team to a typical sports team.

As long as there is a WDC both of the drivers for a given "team" will have aspirations of winning that WDC a fact leads to an erosion of an F1 "team".

That alone will be conducive to a driver a pit crew, mechanics, race engineers pulling for their driver first and the "team" second.

So the idea of a team in every sense of the word only applies to the constructor.

Indeed, and I think some teams are happier with that balance than others, some teams prefer that the team is always put first.

[racechick]

I think ive just put my view regarding this on the Ferrari team orders thread.

[f1ea]

How about the driver hires the team?

[The_Stig_Money]

Team orders should be used to make the best out come from a race/season.

Team orders are not there to cause bad results

Ok: driver/team points, improving gaps between competitors, defense

Not Ok: crashes, slowing to increase gaps, and stopping on the last qualifing laps

Some teams will definatly take advantage of the rule and thats why we need it.

[What's Burning?]

Then you'd have to have Sir Richard Branson F1 driver.

[Bubbie]

I think Team Orders should not be allowed. If a teammate has the ability to pull over and let another driver through, then the team obviously won't gain directly from a team order (shuffling two cars still gives the same amount of points in the WCC). So it is more favouring one driver, rather than "the team".

Having said that... there is currently a fundamental problem in F1, that still needs to be addressed... Passing.

If the passing working group would get their act together and make it so that you can pass in F1, this would not be such an issue. The only reason I hear that makes any sense from a team perspective right now is because it is near impossible to pass even if you are faster. If the faster car could pass effectively without having to do a kamikaze run, then the issue would be moot. The faster driver would be past the slower teammate in front.

[myownalias]

I agree with What's burning, if it's truly a team sport why does each driver have his own race engineer, mechanics and strategists? Why not have one set of team members for both drivers. As for the no team orders rule, it's inevitable that it will be scrapped in favour of a gentleman's agreement within FOTA, which inevitably won't work out!

[The Immortal Dragon]

Team orders should be used to make the best out come from a race/season.

Team orders are not there to cause bad results

Ok: driver/team points, improving gaps between competitors, defense

Not Ok: crashes, slowing to increase gaps, and stopping on the last qualifing laps

Some teams will definatly take advantage of the rule and thats why we need it.

I agree completely.

[Jensonb]

It's really weak to compare F1 to sports like Soccer or Basketball just because they have "teams". The kind of teamwork involved is radically different. On a soccer team, all the players do (Essentially) the same thing - kick the ball, header the ball, occasionally throw it and so on. In Formula One, there are many many more members to each team, and they all do a lot of wholly different things. There are two cars, and two drivers to pilot them. Whilst these cars are on the same team, unlike in soccer, they do not win together. There may be accolades and awards for exception players in soccer, but ultimately, the players all win and lose together.

Whereas in F1, the two drivers are competing separately for the World Drivers' Championship and for Race Wins. Alonso winning for Ferrari is not a win for Massa in the way that Xabi Alonso scoring the winning goal for Real Madrid is still a win for Christiano Ronaldo.

[vaptin]

They fly the same banner, that's the important bit, they have the same boss ultimately. Yes they use different staff (although don't McLaren currently make a big show of sharing with no wall and other stuff) but thats mainly for best use of resources.

The drivers and his personal engineers are selfish up to a point, they do want to win a WDC, but I don't think that should come at the expense of what the team feel is their greater interest or chance to win that WDC. Only one of the teams drivers can win a WDC, the team might not always feel that they can support both drivers for the entire season for whatever reason. If its a mistake, its the team's mistake to make.

If your trying to argue separate staff members - they're effectively separate, then your asking for 1 driver teams.

[smokin]

F1 is both a team sport AND an individual sport. That's why there's a WCC and a WDC. The two separate interests are not mutually exclusive, however, since a WDC win brings additional kudos to the team and one driver holding up his teammate can be detrimental to the WCC, for instance.

But the fans both directly and indirectly sponsor the team and the fans want a spectacle. One driver pulling over to let another pass is not a spectacle. But, equally, one driver taking out his teammate in an ill-judged passing manoeuvre does the team no good and so the teams must tread a fine line between turning off the money tap and ensuring success. FIA's "no team orders" rule is an attempt to police this fine line - and what a complete mess they've made of it, incensing both fans and teams alike.

The rule, as it stands, is unenforceable as has been shown. I know the OP title requests that no teams or drivers are mentioned by name but we should give thanks to Ferrari for showing just how unenforceable it is. (This is not backhanded criticism of Ferrari, just an observation.) The stewards fine was a knee-jerk reaction to the initial outrage. The WMSC verdict was the saner reaction.

Do I want to see no team orders? Yes - unless it leads to 'my' team taking each other out, which I'm guessing is a lot of people's view. Most fans have a favourite driver and, by extension, support the team. So, team orders is good if it's your team, bad if it's not. Whether or not your man is the one asked to pull over, a points finish is still better than no finish at all.

I, regretfully, therefore come to the conclusion that team orders should be allowed and the rule should be scrapped in its entirety.

But I'm still going to be upset if a 'team order' by another team hurts my favourite driver's chances in the WDC just not as upset as I would be if I thought that the position swap broke a rule and could therefore be considered cheating.

[spankyham]

I'm stating that what is nonsensical is to compare an F1 team to a typical sports team.

As long as there is a WDC both of the drivers for a given "team" will have aspirations of winning that WDC a fact leads to an erosion of an F1 "team".

That alone will be conducive to a driver a pit crew, mechanics, race engineers pulling for their driver first and the "team" second.

So the idea of a team in every sense of the word only applies to the constructor.

Having major individual awards and recognitions is in no way exclusive to F1. In fact, all team sports I can think of have them. I also venture to say they are more prestigious within their own sport. FIFA footballer of the year is huge and, I'm sure coveted by all players.

Pit crews etc like fans can have their favourites in a team (I will elaborate a little more in my next reply). Having a favourite team member is not mutually exclusive to the goal of the team winning. Both concepts can co-exist in harmony - as long as the individual is a team player and isn't an ego-maniac.

I'm trying to find a specific reference, its from the FiA where it acknowledges that the prime objective in F1 is for the "team" to win. Drivers aren't even mentioned. (anyone who has it please help and post). However, the reference itself isn't necessary as it is inherently obvious. The team puts everything up and pays the drivers as well, it is the team that comes 1st 2nd and 3rd. After the team has achieved its best possible result, you can consider the individuals.

[spankyham]

I agree with What's burning, if it's truly a team sport why does each driver have his own race engineer, mechanics and strategists? Why not have one set of team members for both drivers. As for the no team orders rule, it's inevitable that it will be scrapped in favour of a gentleman's agreement within FOTA, which inevitably won't work out!

We live in an age of specialists and information overload. In this regard F1 is just like every other team sport -your observation therefore actually make the comparison more and more relevant. Not long ago in Australian rules football, a team had one coach, perhaps with an assistant. Today we have defensive coaches, forward coaches, kicking coaches, fitness, tap-out, strength, diet blah blah blah the list just goes on. There are now 3 to 1 in the coaching and assistance ratio to players. I'd expect the tap-out coach will cheer for the player he coaches, even though there are 21 others on the team that day.

There is simply too much data and setup for one engineer to handle two drivers.

The fact that some people have trouble grasping the fact that F1 is a team sport and that the Teams are the fundamental units of F1 is probably why there is so much disagreement. But, the fact is, the Team invest huge amounts and it is the teams that pay the drivers. The drivers will come and go, but the teams are constant (well some are )

[bud]

Motoracing should not be confused with team sports such as football basketball etc, I wouldn't really call Adrian Newey a sportsman though he is a part of the team. They are totally different things! F1 and motorsport in general is about everyone putting their efforts together so one guy, only one can drive as fast as possible around the track!