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#213181
A V-10 is a mechanical abomination because a straight-5 is inherently unbalanced (both primarily & secondarily), and a V-10 is two abominable 5s joined at the crank. F1 embraced it when displacement was raised to 3.5 litres because 300-350 CCs per cylinder is optimal for thermodynamic efficiency (350cc X 10 cylinders = 3.5 litres). Engines then only had to last the one race so reliability wasn't as strong a concern as it is now. The 90° V-8 has perfect primary and secondary balances so it will tend to have better reliability.


Would I be right in assuming that the inbalance is what gives the straight 5 such a distinctive sound? The quattro in my sig is straight 5 and no other rally car sound like it.
#213201
...Would I be right in assuming that the inbalance is what gives the straight 5 such a distinctive sound? The quattro in my sig is straight 5 and no other rally car sound like it.

Not so much the imbalance as the odd firing order, which is closely related but not exactly the same. Four of the cylinders have the same firing order as a straight-4 so there's really not much you can do with that fifth exhaust pulse to keep it from sounding the odd duck.

The Audi Quattro's straight-5 was the modern rebirth of the S-5. Even Henry Ford had tinkered with S-5s in the 1930s and 40s but, in the end, he decided the V-8 was the optimal design. In a more fuel-conscious era, Audi went with the S-5 because, in theory, it offers (close to) 6-cyl power with (close to) 4-cyl fuel economy. They got it pretty right but Honda got it upside down. Their S-5 2.5 TL had a reputation for making 4-cyl power but having 6-cyl thirst.

Yeah, I know they've built diesel straight-5s since forever but diesels are so low-revving and have such mild power pulses, they run a different crank design (5 crank journals at 72°) that would have a pretty bad secondary imbalance in a high revving application.
#213213
...Would I be right in assuming that the inbalance is what gives the straight 5 such a distinctive sound? The quattro in my sig is straight 5 and no other rally car sound like it.

Not so much the imbalance as the odd firing order, which is closely related but not exactly the same. Four of the cylinders have the same firing order as a straight-4 so there's really not much you can do with that fifth exhaust pulse to keep it from sounding the odd duck.

The Audi Quattro's straight-5 was the modern rebirth of the S-5. Even Henry Ford had tinkered with S-5s in the 1930s and 40s but, in the end, he decided the V-8 was the optimal design. In a more fuel-conscious era, Audi went with the S-5 because, in theory, it offers (close to) 6-cyl power with (close to) 4-cyl fuel economy. They got it pretty right but Honda got it upside down. Their S-5 2.5 TL had a reputation for making 4-cyl power but having 6-cyl thirst.

Yeah, I know they've built diesel straight-5s since forever but diesels are so low-revving and have such mild power pulses, they run a different crank design (5 crank journals at 72°) that would have a pretty bad secondary imbalance in a high revving application.


Thanks, thats very interesting :) . Wonder why more manufacturers dont try and perfect the concept.
#213230
Thanks, thats very interesting :) . Wonder why more manufacturers dont try and perfect the concept.

It's not for lack of development, it's like an antigravity car or a carburettor that enables a car to run on water. Some things simply are beyond the laws of physics.

I was tempted to start a long dissertation on balance dynamics but let me just give you the expurgated version (which is too long as is). Some engine layouts are forever doomed to be "rough-running" and the V-10 is one of them. The simplest example is the single cylinder engine. A piston going up and down within the cylinder is continually reversing direction and accelerating in the opposite. The piston moving within the cylinder tends to want to push the remainder of the engine in the opposite direction (Sir Isaac's Second Law). And just to complicate affairs, at top dead center and bottom dead center, just before it reverses direction, the piston has zero vertical velocity and its momentum is nil.

Because Force = Mass x Acceleration, both the amount of force and the direction of that force vary dramatically every time the crank turns a full revolution. Unless countered, these imbalances cause the engine to vibrate.

Since I have artificially limited this example to a single cylinder engine, the only practical solution to null the vibration is a counterbalancer. This is nothing more than a mass (or weight) equal to that of the piston, usually mated to the crank itself by a gear that spins in the opposite direction and at the same rate as the crank. This results in two equal masses, each perpetually traveling in the opposite direction as the other and always at the identical velocity. This satisfies Sir Isaac and the primary imbalance is canceled.

The single-cylinder counterbalancer at work:

Image

That's how we get perfect primary balance. But there's also secondary balance to contend with.

The piston does not accelerate at the same rate in both directions or on every stroke. Acceleration is fastest after the spark plug fires and the fuel ignites, forcing the piston to descend. And in a four stroke engine, only the combustion stroke produces energy. The remaining three consume energy, so the piston progressively slows until the next ignition occurs.

Since acceleration is less, so is momentum. That means there is a secondary imbalance caused by the act of breaking the fuel, an imbalance that the first counterbalancer is powerless to affect.

Fine, the secondary imbalance is merely another example of inertia and we can counterbalance that as well. The hitch is that this is a four-stroke engine and ignition only occurs on alternating revolutions. Which means the second counterbalancer also is to be gear-driven but will only turn at one-half the speed of the crank. That way the counterbalancer is at maximum acceleration only when the cylinder fires, and that's how we correct a secondary imbalance.

This explains why almost all single-cylinder 4-stroke engines are of very small displacement. The imbalances grow worse as the displacement increases because the sources of the vibrations -- the mass of the piston and the magnitude of the power pulse -- both are increasing as well. By the time the engine has significant displacement, you could just as easily have used the dynamics of additional, smaller (power-producing) cylinders instead of multiple (power-robbing) counterbalancers to reduce the shaking.

Some designs inherently possess better balance than others. The 1-cylinder, obviously, has a horrible primary and secondary imbalance problem. Left to its own devices, it would like nothing better than to shake itself to pieces. The boxer-twin as in some BMW motorcycles has perfect primary balance but pretty miserable secondary. The inline-4 is similar, which is why your crotch rocket motorcycle needs a counterbalancer to quell the buzzzzzzing.

But some designs are inherently perfect on both counts. The inline-six is the simplest design with perfect primary and secondary balance. Others commonly seen are the "boxer" flat six (a la the Porsche 911), the 90° V-8 and the V-12.

I find the V-12 particularly interesting because it is the fusion of two straight-sixes, which already have perfect primary and secondary balance. That perfect balance persists regardless of the included bank angle. It can be anywhere from 0° (making it a straight-12) to 180° and balance is unaffected. Because of a quirk in the mathematics in the delivery of torque, V-12s are smoothest (even smoother than the parent sixes) with included angles of 45°, 60°, 120°, or 180°.

One of my favorite automotive quirkies is the engine of the Ferrari 512 Berlinetta Boxer (built 1973-1984). It had a 5-liter, 180° V-12. Curiously it was not a "boxer" motor as it's name would have you believe (also sometimes referred to as a flat-12), it was a genuine Vee engine with a 180° included angle. So why did they call it a "Boxer"? I'm afraid you'll have to put that question to Il Commendatore next time you see him. :wink:

But back to the V-10. It is the victim of the fact that every circle has 360° and each cycle of a four-stroke engine lasts 180 of them. It fires only once every 720°. As a consequence, the smoothest automotive engines tend to be the ones with a crank angle that is a factor of 180, usually 90 or 180°. There simply is no way to have ten pistons travel in a circle at regular intervals which also will permit a firing order that produces opposing (vibration-canceling) power pulses. There are some crank configurations (and firing orders) that favour primary balance. Others favour secondary balance. They even use clever split journals which allow the pistons sharing a single journal to be splayed by 18° (720° ÷ 10 cylinders = 72° per, and 72°+18° = 90°, a magic journal angle) but there simply is no one configuration that will make a V-10 run smoothly without a host of counterbalancers. It's not the development, it's the mathematics.
Last edited by Fred_C_Dobbs on 02 Sep 10, 13:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By MattMK45
#213251
A fantastic taster of a very lengthy topic. Thank you! I always knew the v10s were slightly unbalanced. I know the factories can alter the engine note but, v10
s always have a distinct high revving attitude. Roadcars that have v10s Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche Carrera GT and so on always scream as engines and never rumble. Is that because as an engine the v10 is unbalanced?
User avatar
By madbrad
#213318
Oh then this raises more questions. I ddn't know that Ferrari was not areal boxer. The 512 is my favourite Ferrari of all! what is the difference between a 180 degree V12 and a boxer 12?
#213377
A V-10 essentially is two straight 5s mated at the crank and has a peculiar exhaust note for the same reasons as the straight 5 (x2).

The primary difference between a boxer and a true Vee is in the design of the crankshaft. Boxers and Vees both have two (or sometimes more) banks of cylinders. Each cylinder in one bank has an opposite number in the other bank(s). In a Vee engine, these opposing pistons share the same crank pin. In a boxer engine, each of the opposing pistons has its own crank pin, splayed by 180°.

Image

Examples of true 180° V-twins are exceedingly rare so I had to settle for a boxer twin (at left) and a 90° V (at right), as used in Ducati motorcycles. Anyway, the point of the illustration is to show the difference in their crankshaft arrangement, and how that affects the relative motion of the pistons. A boxer's pistons always are moving in the opposite direction at identical speeds, which balances the primary forces.

If you use your imagination :eek: and stretch the bank angle of that V to 180° so that the pistons are horizontally opposed, like those in the boxer on the left, and "spin the motor," you'll see the pistons moving left or right in unison. Not only do they not cancel each other's inertia -- as the boxer's do -- they double it, which makes Sir Isaac very cross indeed.

This is an excellent animation of a BMW boxer twin motorcycle. Someone long ago likened the motion of the pistons to a boxer bashing his gloves together, which is how it came by its name.

Here's a video of an animation of a 180° V-12, similar to that in the Ferrari 512BB. It is labeled a "flat" 12 which is something of a misnomer because a "flat" engine generally is accepted to mean a boxer motor as opposed to a 180° Vee. But if you watch the motion of a single pair of opposing pistons, you'll see that they move left or right in unison. This is the hallmark of a true "Vee" engine, not a boxer.

This is a boxer four as used in Subarus. I reckon Subaru must be the world's largest manufacturer of boxer engines.

Here is a boxer six as used in Porsche's venerable 911 series.

And I just came across this web site, which gives a (relatively) short explanation on the balance problems inherent in a design based on its number of cylinders, plus a bit about boxer motors and the narrow angle Vees (al la Volkwagen & Bugatti).

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