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[Denthúl]

Interesting read with interesting points. Rather than go back to DVR to rewatch an entire race, I thought we could discuss it in here. When Kimi went off the track at Spa, was it during rain and he slid off...or was he putting a passing move on someone, overshot it and then ignored a corner so that he could remain on that person's bumper? The offs that I recall Kimi having were always on the outside of the track, effectively making the track LONGER for him..not shorter. He didn't gain any time by going off, he lost time in doing so. Yes, he did get on the gas while off the track in order to join the track at speed but that is not gaining an advantage. Gaining an advantage is when you skip a corner altogether and I don't recall him doing so. If I am wrong, please let me know and I will go back to the DVR to refresh my memory.

Hamilton got himself in trouble because by cutting that chicane he SKIPPED AN ENTIRE CORNER. That is a problem in any racing organization. The grey area is how he gave the position back. I've since this incident checked with SCCA and PCA on how they would handle such an incident and have been told that skipping that corner would mean I should remain behind for the next corner as well. He missed a corner...turned it into a straight...you don't just get to jump back on the guys rear wing and then pass him. Kimi went around a corner that Hamilton did not go around at all, and that is the difference between sliding off the track and rejoining....and what Hamilton did.

I admit, in Hamiltons shoes I would have done the same thing..as I had not thought about it in the above terms until it was pointed out to me by people who judge racing. The difference being, I am an amateur and he is a professional...he should have known better.

Just my .02

Point completely missed! Gaining and an advantage is just that. It isn't specifially going a shorter or longer distance, it's gaining time/speed, avoiding and accident etc. Kimi did all of those things by going the long way round instead of slowing for a tighter corner. I'm a Kimi supporter, but I'm not blind.

So what you're saying is that drivers should crash instead of going off-track to stop them smashing their car up and potentially injuring themselves/others? Great.

[racechick]

Interesting read with interesting points. Rather than go back to DVR to rewatch an entire race, I thought we could discuss it in here. When Kimi went off the track at Spa, was it during rain and he slid off...or was he putting a passing move on someone, overshot it and then ignored a corner so that he could remain on that person's bumper? The offs that I recall Kimi having were always on the outside of the track, effectively making the track LONGER for him..not shorter. He didn't gain any time by going off, he lost time in doing so. Yes, he did get on the gas while off the track in order to join the track at speed but that is not gaining an advantage. Gaining an advantage is when you skip a corner altogether and I don't recall him doing so. If I am wrong, please let me know and I will go back to the DVR to refresh my memory.

Hamilton got himself in trouble because by cutting that chicane he SKIPPED AN ENTIRE CORNER. That is a problem in any racing organization. The grey area is how he gave the position back. I've since this incident checked with SCCA and PCA on how they would handle such an incident and have been told that skipping that corner would mean I should remain behind for the next corner as well. He missed a corner...turned it into a straight...you don't just get to jump back on the guys rear wing and then pass him. Kimi went around a corner that Hamilton did not go around at all, and that is the difference between sliding off the track and rejoining....and what Hamilton did.

I admit, in Hamiltons shoes I would have done the same thing..as I had not thought about it in the above terms until it was pointed out to me by people who judge racing. The difference being, I am an amateur and he is a professional...he should have known better.

Just my .02

Point completely missed! Gaining and an advantage is just that. It isn't specifially going a shorter or longer distance, it's gaining time/speed, avoiding and accident etc. Kimi did all of those things by going the long way round instead of slowing for a tighter corner. I'm a Kimi supporter, but I'm not blind.

So what you're saying is that drivers should crash instead of going off-track to stop them smashing their car up and potentially injuring themselves/others? Great.

To answer Bill-two of kimmi's moves were in the first couple of laps so it would have been drier.
To answer Denthul-going of track to avoid a collision is what lewis was ultimaely penaised for. I agree with you Denthul-mad!

[Denthúl]

Interesting read with interesting points. Rather than go back to DVR to rewatch an entire race, I thought we could discuss it in here. When Kimi went off the track at Spa, was it during rain and he slid off...or was he putting a passing move on someone, overshot it and then ignored a corner so that he could remain on that person's bumper? The offs that I recall Kimi having were always on the outside of the track, effectively making the track LONGER for him..not shorter. He didn't gain any time by going off, he lost time in doing so. Yes, he did get on the gas while off the track in order to join the track at speed but that is not gaining an advantage. Gaining an advantage is when you skip a corner altogether and I don't recall him doing so. If I am wrong, please let me know and I will go back to the DVR to refresh my memory.

Hamilton got himself in trouble because by cutting that chicane he SKIPPED AN ENTIRE CORNER. That is a problem in any racing organization. The grey area is how he gave the position back. I've since this incident checked with SCCA and PCA on how they would handle such an incident and have been told that skipping that corner would mean I should remain behind for the next corner as well. He missed a corner...turned it into a straight...you don't just get to jump back on the guys rear wing and then pass him. Kimi went around a corner that Hamilton did not go around at all, and that is the difference between sliding off the track and rejoining....and what Hamilton did.

I admit, in Hamiltons shoes I would have done the same thing..as I had not thought about it in the above terms until it was pointed out to me by people who judge racing. The difference being, I am an amateur and he is a professional...he should have known better.

Just my .02

Point completely missed! Gaining and an advantage is just that. It isn't specifially going a shorter or longer distance, it's gaining time/speed, avoiding and accident etc. Kimi did all of those things by going the long way round instead of slowing for a tighter corner. I'm a Kimi supporter, but I'm not blind.

So what you're saying is that drivers should crash instead of going off-track to stop them smashing their car up and potentially injuring themselves/others? Great.

To answer Bill-two of kimmi's moves were in the first couple of laps so it would have been drier.
To answer Denthul-going of track to avoid a collision is what lewis was ultimaely penaised for. I agree with you Denthul-mad!

I'm not sure I agree or disagree. I'm of the opinion that the penalty was totally unfair, but I still doubt that cutting the chicane was his only option. However, here is not the place to discuss it.

[billindenver]

Of course cutting the chicane was not his only option. He could have gotten back on the track, behind kimi and taken that second corner of the chicane...instead he skipped the corner and jumped on the track behind Kimi. That allowed him to remain at Kimi's speed on his rear wing once he went by. That would not have been possible if Hamilton had attempted to complete the corner...hence the advantage. I had my doubts until those who judge these things explained it to me...once I understood that side of it, it seems pretty cut and dried. He chose to skip a corner and ended up in front of Kimi...that is an advantage, how else could he have come out of the chicane in front of Kimi? Having taken that advantage he must give it back without retaining ANY of that advantage for the next corner. He clearly retained some of that advantage, used it...made a pass and was penalized. Naturally all of motor racing has discussed that move and how it would be handled at lower levels should it become and issue and the two separate organizations I asked both said they would handle it the same way. Make of it what you will...

[racechick]

Of course cutting the chicane was not his only option. He could have gotten back on the track, behind kimi and taken that second corner of the chicane...instead he skipped the corner and jumped on the track behind Kimi. That allowed him to remain at Kimi's speed on his rear wing once he went by. That would not have been possible if Hamilton had attempted to complete the corner...hence the advantage. I had my doubts until those who judge these things explained it to me...once I understood that side of it, it seems pretty cut and dried. He chose to skip a corner and ended up in front of Kimi...that is an advantage, how else could he have come out of the chicane in front of Kimi? Having taken that advantage he must give it back without retaining ANY of that advantage for the next corner. He clearly retained some of that advantage, used it...made a pass and was penalized. Naturally all of motor racing has discussed that move and how it would be handled at lower levels should it become and issue and the two separate organizations I asked both said they would handle it the same way. Make of it what you will...

He did not CHOOSE to skip a ciorner , he cut the chicane because Kimmi braked ridiculously earlier and then proceeded to push lewis off the track leaving no room. Lewis was too committd to brake out of it and the track ws getting slippery anyway AND lewis gave back the position (in the then accepted way of doing so) and was told by race control, yep thats ok. Now of course the rules have been 'clarified'. You omit to mention Kimmi's 3 chicane cutting excursions in the same race that went unpunished.
You also forget that Kimim was unablde to maintain Lewis' speed in the wet a was poved when he stuffied it in the wall soon after. Where was this supposed advantage while kimi was sat in the wall??

[billindenver]

He did not CHOOSE to skip a ciorner , he cut the chicane because Kimmi braked ridiculously earlier and then proceeded to push lewis off the track leaving no room. Lewis was too committd to brake out of it and the track ws getting slippery anyway

So Lewis attempting an outside pass on a very sharp chicane corner means Kimi should have just gotten out of his way? Have you ever gone into a corner, on the braking limit while trying to turn? Kimi was set for that corner, which means his braking marker would be as late as possible and still be able to make the corner...which means his trackout speed pushes him out from the apex. He didn't choose to push Lewis off, Lewis attempted a hairbrained outside pass on a corner where there isn't any room. The only person to blame for Lewis skipping a corner is Lewis, and while I am sure you disagree...most, if not all of the drivers differ in opinion from you and the other McLaren fans and the FIA ruled against you. I know, I know...conspiracy...the whole world is against Lewis.

AND lewis gave back the position (in the then accepted way of doing so) and was told by race control, yep thats ok. Now of course the rules have been 'clarified'.

Accepted by whom? Lewis was told by race control that it was ok? When? They called him on the radio? I would like to see a link to some verification of that please.

You omit to mention Kimmi's 3 chicane cutting excursions in the same race that went unpunished.
You also forget that Kimim was unablde to maintain Lewis' speed in the wet a was poved when he stuffied it in the wall soon after. Where was this supposed advantage while kimi was sat in the wall??

Tell me, what position was Kimi in when he hit the wall? Mmm-Hmmm. If you are assuming I am a Ferrari fan, you are mistaken. I would much rather see Kubica, Alonso and Kova fighting this out for the championship personally. There is still a very good chance Hammy will win this thing, but I would rather his attitude were not rewarded. This morning I was watching Formula One Debrief on SPEED and that was the first time I have heard any of those three say anything negative about Hamilton. This morning they went on and on about how Hamilton was overly agressive and at times dangerous in his treatment of other cars. They showed clips of him shoving other drivers into the grass, cutting off Alonso when they said he had no reason and no business doing so. It was pretty shocking considering how often they salivate and slobber all over the Hamilton name.....for them to come out against what he has been driving like really says something. You should watch it.

[racechick]

He did not CHOOSE to skip a ciorner , he cut the chicane because Kimmi braked ridiculously earlier and then proceeded to push lewis off the track leaving no room. Lewis was too committd to brake out of it and the track ws getting slippery anyway

So Lewis attempting an outside pass on a very sharp chicane corner means Kimi should have just gotten out of his way? Have you ever gone into a corner, on the braking limit while trying to turn? Kimi was set for that corner, which means his braking marker would be as late as possible and still be able to make the corner...which means his trackout speed pushes him out from the apex. He didn't choose to push Lewis off, Lewis attempted a hairbrained outside pass on a corner where there isn't any room. The only person to blame for Lewis skipping a corner is Lewis, and while I am sure you disagree...most, if not all of the drivers differ in opinion from you and the other McLaren fans and the FIA ruled against you. I know, I know...conspiracy...the whole world is against Lewis.

AND lewis gave back the position (in the then accepted way of doing so) and was told by race control, yep thats ok. Now of course the rules have been 'clarified'.

Accepted by whom? Lewis was told by race control that it was ok? When? They called him on the radio? I would like to see a link to some verification of that please.

You omit to mention Kimmi's 3 chicane cutting excursions in the same race that went unpunished.
You also forget that Kimim was unablde to maintain Lewis' speed in the wet a was poved when he stuffied it in the wall soon after. Where was this supposed advantage while kimi was sat in the wall??

Tell me, what position was Kimi in when he hit the wall? Mmm-Hmmm. If you are assuming I am a Ferrari fan, you are mistaken. I would much rather see Kubica, Alonso and Kova fighting this out for the championship personally. There is still a very good chance Hammy will win this thing, but I would rather his attitude were not rewarded. This morning I was watching Formula One Debrief on SPEED and that was the first time I have heard any of those three say anything negative about Hamilton. This morning they went on and on about how Hamilton was overly agressive and at times dangerous in his treatment of other cars. They showed clips of him shoving other drivers into the grass, cutting off Alonso when they said he had no reason and no business doing so. It was pretty shocking considering how often they salivate and slobber all over the Hamilton name.....for them to come out against what he has been driving like really says something. You should watch it.

You think he's dangerous?? well take a look at some of Schumachers moves then. This is motor racing , you drive cars fast and you try to get past the one in front of you. If its too tough for you watch golf.

[racechick]

And COME ON!! Everyone knows Charlie Whiting said it was ok. Thats not even up for discussion!
Yes Lewis was attempting an outside pass, he's done it many times before and Kimmi was going slow and he breaked pathetically early, thats clear for all to see.

[billindenver]

You think he's dangerous?? well take a look at some of Schumachers moves then. This is motor racing , you drive cars fast and you try to get past the one in front of you. If its too tough for you watch golf.

And I was every bit as critical of Schumachers dangerous moves as I am of Hamilton's. Here is the difference. Many, such as yourself, criticized Schumacher when he did it, but think it is ok for Hamilton. I am not in either the Ferrari or the McLaren camp...I think both teams are horribly screwed up. If Kubica was running cars into the grass on the STRAIGHTS like Hamilton has and making very aggressive blocking moves when he is clearly in the faster car...I would be equally vocal about him. At present, Hamilton is the only guy driving like everyone owes him something.

And yes, I think he is dangerous...so do many of the F1 drivers and they have not been silent about it. Now, David Hobbs and the rest of the SPEED crew are saying he is dangerous. That's ok though, since you assure us that he isn't....how many races a year do you enter your car in? Have you ever been crashed out of a race by a driver acting like that? I assure you, it doesn't feel half as cushy as it looks on TV.

I respect your devotion to your driver, but surely you have to admit he is pushing the safety envelope. Watch that F1 Debrief...they have plenty of video that even you will have to raise your eyebrows about.

[McLaren Fan]

One thing you keep missing out on, billindenver is that Hamilton's move started life as a swerve to avoid Raikkonen who braked incredibly early for the chicane. Hamilton, better on the brakes than most drivers anyway in normal conditions, was able to run alongside and get slightly ahead of Raikkonen. At the stage, he thought maybe there was a chance he could pull a move off. He didn't, was pushed wide and did as the rules said, giving Raikkonen his place back, and then passed him at La Source, which he most likely have done had he not been pushed, for Raikkonen's car was handling like a shopping trolley and the McLaren handles like a gem in the rain. You like to present yourself as somebody who is experienced and impartial, but your views are clouded and extreme, ironically the thing for which you chastise others.

[racechick]

Hey ive been thinking Billyboy, Lewis' move on Kimi was NOT dangerous and there is no "outside" when taking a chicane as while being on the outside for the first part of the chicane Lewis was on the inside for the second part! where Kimi forced him off track!
I thought you took part in races and would have realised that?? Perhaps you perceive it as a bit too dangerous and so avoid such moves. But Lewis is not a timid driver hence he is in F1.

One other point, what do you suggest McLaren should have done? having contacted race control and been given given the OK.

[McLaren Fan]

Race Control are responsible for this sort of thing. Whiting makes teams aware of infractions and the team if needs be pass this information onto their drivers. Also, Whiting refers incidents to the stewards for investigation. If Race Control say something is fine, then it is. That's way it's been in the past, well, until Spa.