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[bud]

Heard on the grapevine Felipe will only get a $10k penalty

Heard? Can you elaborate?

not at this moment but that is what they are saying on the McLaren members forum. sounds fitting if you ask me

[texasmr2]

I believe that he should and will get a penalty.

Please remove the 'Ferrari' from your board name then and insert another team's name !

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. I'm trying to evaluate the event and its proper consequences without allowing team allegiances to colour my reasoning. Are you suggesting that I must adopt a "Ferrari is always right" policy or I'm not a Ferrari fan?

Sorry I was miffed and out of line, I think the team was more at fault than the driver.

(Autosport)

Massa reprimanded but keeps victory

Felipe Massa has been reprimanded and fined by the European Grand Prix stewards, but the Ferrari driver has kept his victory at Valencia.

Massa's victory was in doubt after the stewards said they would investigate a pitlane incident after the race.

The Brazilian nearly crashed with Force India's Adrian Sutil when joining the pitlane following his pitstop and the stewards deemed his release had been dangerous.

As a result of the incident Massa has been reprimanded and Ferrari fined 10,000 Euro.


(fits what I posted earlier - it was the team at fault and should so be fined and not the driver)

[8-ball]

I believe that he should and will get a penalty.

Please remove the 'Ferrari' from your board name then and insert another team's name !

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. I'm trying to evaluate the event and its proper consequences without allowing team allegiances to colour my reasoning. Are you suggesting that I must adopt a "Ferrari is always right" policy or I'm not a Ferrari fan?

Sorry I was miffed and out of line, I think the team was more at fault than the driver.

(Autosport)

Massa reprimanded but keeps victory

Felipe Massa has been reprimanded and fined by the European Grand Prix stewards, but the Ferrari driver has kept his victory at Valencia.

Massa's victory was in doubt after the stewards said they would investigate a pitlane incident after the race.

The Brazilian nearly crashed with Force India's Adrian Sutil when joining the pitlane following his pitstop and the stewards deemed his release had been dangerous.

As a result of the incident Massa has been reprimanded and Ferrari fined 10,000 Euro.


(fits what I posted earlier - it was the team at fault and should so be fined and not the driver)

A fair decision by the stewards. Massa leaves the pit when the light goes green so it isn't his fault and neither Sutil or Massa's race was compromised.

[McLaren Fan]

No I dont think he should be penalised because the blame should be directed more toward's the team and not the driver for this particular incident, strictly my opinion though.

Formula One is a team sport, so that doesn't matter. What's the difference between an engine which the team built failing and the team releasing their driver too early from the pits? The driver still is the one who suffers. I had to laugh at Blundell's view that because no damage was done, what happened was okay. The rule is there to prevent a dangerous situation, which was particularly likely to happen in Valencia's extremely narrow pitlane. If Massa and Sutil collided, the whole exit to the pitlane would have been blocked, ruining numerous teams' and drivers' race. Ferrari didn't care about this and allowed Massa to leave his pit box early to try and get past the back marker. There was no need to do this. Sutil would have moved out of the way quickly and Massa had a good margin over Hamilton's McLaren. The rules are very clear on this matter. Teams in Formula One have been punished for less serious breaches of this rule and in the lower formula, and I'm particularly talking about GP2 the stewards punished drivers and teams for this type of offence. Once again, however, it's one rule for Ferrari and another rule for the other competitors. Also, as the race was being held in Spain, I'm sure a few Spaniards would not have liked to see Hamilton and a McLaren win the Grand Prix. If McLaren had done something similar, I've no doubts a drive-through penalty would have been given in the race. Formula One f***ing stinks.

[EwanM]

No I dont think he should be penalised because the blame should be directed more toward's the team and not the driver for this particular incident, strictly my opinion though.

Formula One is a team sport, so that doesn't matter. What's the difference between an engine which the team built failing and the team releasing their driver too early from the pits? The driver still is the one who suffers. I had to laugh at Blundell's view that because no damage was done, what happened was okay. The rule is there to prevent a dangerous situation, which was particularly likely to happen in Valencia's extremely narrow pitlane. If Massa and Sutil collided, the whole exit to the pitlane would have been blocked, ruining numerous teams' and drivers' race. Ferrari didn't care about this and allowed Massa to leave his pit box early to try and get past the back marker. There was no need to do this. Sutil would have moved out of the way quickly and Massa had a good margin over Hamilton's McLaren. The rules are very clear on this matter. Teams in Formula One have been punished for less serious breaches of this rule and in the lower formula, and I'm particularly talking about GP2 the stewards punished drivers and teams for this type of offence. Once again, however, it's one rule for Ferrari and another rule for the other competitors. Also, as the race was being held in Spain, I'm sure a few Spaniards would not have liked to see Hamilton and a McLaren win the Grand Prix. If McLaren had done something similar, I've no doubts a drive-through penalty would have been given in the race. Formula One f***ing stinks.

I doubt anyone would have been punished. We've see countless times when 2 cars have raced down the pit lane. I can think of worse moments in the pitlane that went unchallenged, like Alonso and Vettel in Germany. I'm not saying what Massa and Ferrari did was safe.. but it wasn't the first time it was done.
Massa got fined... he'd have got a Hamilton France pen if there was a crash

[f1maniac95]

I'm glad that Massa did'nt get a penalty because he drove a great race but with that light system at ferrari how safe is that if cars are nearly going to be crashing into each other when the ferraris leave their pit box.

[FerrariFan63]

No I dont think he should be penalised because the blame should be directed more toward's the team and not the driver for this particular incident, strictly my opinion though.

Formula One is a team sport, so that doesn't matter. What's the difference between an engine which the team built failing and the team releasing their driver too early from the pits? The driver still is the one who suffers. I had to laugh at Blundell's view that because no damage was done, what happened was okay. The rule is there to prevent a dangerous situation, which was particularly likely to happen in Valencia's extremely narrow pitlane. If Massa and Sutil collided, the whole exit to the pitlane would have been blocked, ruining numerous teams' and drivers' race. Ferrari didn't care about this and allowed Massa to leave his pit box early to try and get past the back marker. There was no need to do this. Sutil would have moved out of the way quickly and Massa had a good margin over Hamilton's McLaren. The rules are very clear on this matter. Teams in Formula One have been punished for less serious breaches of this rule and in the lower formula, and I'm particularly talking about GP2 the stewards punished drivers and teams for this type of offence. Once again, however, it's one rule for Ferrari and another rule for the other competitors. Also, as the race was being held in Spain, I'm sure a few Spaniards would not have liked to see Hamilton and a McLaren win the Grand Prix. If McLaren had done something similar, I've no doubts a drive-through penalty would have been given in the race. Formula One f***ing stinks.

I doubt anyone would have been punished. We've see countless times when 2 cars have raced down the pit lane. I can think of worse moments in the pitlane that went unchallenged, like Alonso and Vettel in Germany. I'm not saying what Massa and Ferrari did was safe.. but it wasn't the first time it was done.
Massa got fined... he'd have got a Hamilton France pen if there was a crash

I'd agree that Formula One is a team sport, and you can't separate the team from the driver. Particularly when the drivers' championship is valued higher (whatever team bosses say) than the constructors' championshop. Otherwise you risk teams flagrantly cheating when their driver is contesting the championship, and being prepared to write of the CC in order to secure the DC. The team that most recently benefitted from treating the team and drivers separately is of course McLaren.

I'm coming around to the view that we have seen drivers going side by side in the pitlane before, and therefore it isn't one rule for Ferrari and one rule for everyone else. Though, I do think the rules do ban that sort of action, and that the rule is therefore not being applied properly. it was applied properly in GP2 it appears. So the FIA should, in my opinion, issue a clarification to the teams, apply a light penalty this time (which they did), and then enforce the rule more strictly in the future (which I doubt they will).

[Denthúl]

No I dont think he should be penalised because the blame should be directed more toward's the team and not the driver for this particular incident, strictly my opinion though.

Formula One is a team sport, so that doesn't matter. What's the difference between an engine which the team built failing and the team releasing their driver too early from the pits? The driver still is the one who suffers. I had to laugh at Blundell's view that because no damage was done, what happened was okay. The rule is there to prevent a dangerous situation, which was particularly likely to happen in Valencia's extremely narrow pitlane. If Massa and Sutil collided, the whole exit to the pitlane would have been blocked, ruining numerous teams' and drivers' race. Ferrari didn't care about this and allowed Massa to leave his pit box early to try and get past the back marker. There was no need to do this. Sutil would have moved out of the way quickly and Massa had a good margin over Hamilton's McLaren. The rules are very clear on this matter. Teams in Formula One have been punished for less serious breaches of this rule and in the lower formula, and I'm particularly talking about GP2 the stewards punished drivers and teams for this type of offence. Once again, however, it's one rule for Ferrari and another rule for the other competitors. Also, as the race was being held in Spain, I'm sure a few Spaniards would not have liked to see Hamilton and a McLaren win the Grand Prix. If McLaren had done something similar, I've no doubts a drive-through penalty would have been given in the race. Formula One f***ing stinks.

Bitter.

I'm sorry, but it would have been unfair to punish the driver in this incident as it's not down to him going by choice but by him being told to go by the team. There is a huge difference between this and, say, Barrichello not stopping for the red light in Australia or Hamilton and Rosberg doing the same in Canada. I don't think that it would have been easy, if possible at all, for Massa to have seen Sutil since there would have been pit workers behind his car obscuring his vision. He most likely only would have come to see Sutil as he started to pass the front of his car, at which time he kept away from the line and slowed enough to allow Sutil past before moving fully in to the lane.

The correct kind of punishment here would have been a fine and the banning of the automated system that Ferrari used, given the entire day's events regarding the pit lane. This isn't the first race in which this system has caused issues and it probably won't be the last. They should definitely go back to using a person to hold the lollipop sign since he can see what is going on behind the car, judge when to let the driver go and thus be held accountable when situations like this occur.

Furthermore, seeing as neither Raikkonen nor Kubica were penalised for being released in to the path of the other and rolling two-wide down the pit lane, which could be seen as dangerous (and potentially a contributing factor to Hamilton hitting Raikkonen rather than just rolling out through a red light), then it would have been inconsistent of the FIA to give punishment here, and you do make the consistency point a lot when it comes to their judgement.

[Rockstar]

Had this been any other then Ferrari there would have been a stop and go penalty.

[Denthúl]

Honestly. Pretty much everybody I've spoken to, barring the McLaren fans, felt that it would have been unjust to give Massa any kind of penalty for that, because it was out of his control. And for the record, I don't know any Ferrari fans

[FerrariFan63]

Here we can see Raikkonen being released as Kubica comes past. So that's one previous example where no penalty was applied that I heard of. But other precedents may be necessary to shut up those who claim that had it been any other team than Ferrari there would have been a penalty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbVM-1lfj5o

Wider pit lane than Valencia here.

Here's Massa describing the situation. He claims that it's pretty normal to see two cars side by side in the pitlane, and he says that the situation wasn't dangerous.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/8/8272.html

[cap-dude]

Exactly my friend. This has never been an issue before, and penalties are given out for taking an unfair advantages, or causing avoidable inncident. Massa's move incurred neither, so it simply didn't warrant a penalty. Think back to just about any penalty of late, and they fall under either taking an unfair advantages, or causing avoidable inncident.

[Denthúl]

Here we can see Raikkonen being released as Kubica comes past. So that's one previous example where no penalty was applied that I heard of. But other precedents may be necessary to shut up those who claim that had it been any other team than Ferrari there would have been a penalty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbVM-1lfj5o

Wider pit lane than Valencia here.

To be honest, we've seen it happening all season. I can't wait for James Allen's verdict to be posted and see him slam the decision

I actually wouldn't mind when he does that, as long as he admitted if he was wrong after. Remember when Hamilton hit the back of Alonso and he was going mad about how Alonso probably lifted, then it turned out he didn't? Again, would've been fine if he'd said sorry (or even just cleared that up at the next race instead of leaving people thinking that he was a villain in that incident) at the next race. :/

[scotty]

The correct kind of punishment here would have been a fine and the banning of the automated system that Ferrari used, given the entire day's events regarding the pit lane. This isn't the first race in which this system has caused issues and it probably won't be the last. They should definitely go back to using a person to hold the lollipop sign since he can see what is going on behind the car, judge when to let the driver go and thus be held accountable when situations like this occur.

I agree. However...

That system should be banned more in light of Raikkonen's pit incident i think, he wouldn't have tried to jump the gun like he did if there was a lollipop man standing in his way. It doesn't matter if the system is humanly operated or not - the driver is always going to try and shave off as many tenths as possible if they're in a close fight like Raikkonen was, and having a 'clear track' in front of him merely encouraged him to leave as early as he thought possible. I am in absolutely no doubt that the system should be banned, there are too many negatives to it's use.

Back on this thread subject... hmm, it's quite a tough one, there are pretty feasible sides to both arguments. Ferrari could argue that they reckoned he would get out before Sutil arrived, and Massa did appear to get more wheelspin than is usual coming out of his pit box (dusty track and all that) so they wouldn't strictly be lying. The other side of the coin is the 'if in doubt, safety first' mentality, but really every team would take the risk in that situation in order to make up time, i can't see how anyone can deny that.

All in all, i thought a 10k Euro fine was a bit of a piss take, that's pocket money to these boys, something like 50k+ would have been closer to the right ballpark imo (incidentally, i would like to know who these fines are paid to - i'm assuming BE's bank account ). It could be argued that he deserves a 5 place grid penalty, but even that would be somewhat harsh on Massa himself. It must be nigh on impossible to see anything coming out of those wing mirrors, especially with a whole team of mechanics to get in the way.

[FerrariFan63]

Webber and Button were side by side in the pitlane in the 2005 Japanese GP. But I can't find any video footage of that.