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[IceManpjn]

Well, put it this way. Without the engine failure, this would have been his fourth and he would have matched Hamilton for the season's win rate and, even more so, would have been beating Hamilton on points.

The problem I have about this kind of talk is that it's a one-sided "if" scenario. If Massa's engine hadn't failed, he would have passed up Hamilton in the points. It's no more fair to if this than it would be to if Hamilton, talking about if his tire hadn't failed. Hamilton was holding a strong second place, and if his tire hadn't failed he could have, and should have, held onto his second place position to the end of the race, and then Massa would not have passed him in the overall point standings, even if neither of them had suffered the issues that they had, because Hamilton had a lot more than just two points over Massa going into Hungary.

Massa should have finished in first and Hamilton probably should have been standing next to him on the podium, but Hamilton blew a tire and then Massa blew an engine. It's no more fair or accurate to throw an if scenario at one of them and not at the other. If we're going to discuss what would have been if Massa hadn't blown an engine, we should also talk about it if Hamilton hadn't blown a tire. If neither failure occurred, Massa still wouldn't have overtaken Hamilton in the points.

[Matkins]

Hi everyone,

What a great forum, can't believe I didn't find this place sooner.

I would just like say somethings that's on my mind about Massa's engine failure. It seems really suspicious to me. If you consider that the Hungaroring is not demanding on engines (i think it's 50% on full throttle, which is way bellow average) a driver is less likely to have an engine blow out there than practically any other circuit. Also, when watching the on board shots of the Ferrari it didn't seem like they had totally ironed out all the handling problems that have made them slow over the previous two races. Despite this both Ferrari's were fast this weekend, I know it took Raikonen a while to show the cars true potential, but finishing the race with the fastest lap is the proof. Massa's speed off the starting line was incredible. The McLarren's did not have a bad start, their start was relatively good compared to the field, but their start was not good enough compared to Massa's. It seems to me that Ferrari have pushed their car to be ruthlessly quick in a straight line (Ferrari have always been renowned for their engine speed anyway) in order to be competitive with McLarren, and it worked a charm. The only downside is they must have got their calculations slightly wrong. Massa needed 7(?) more laps out of it in order to claim the prize.

Just to be clear, i'm not putting Massa's excellent performance to shame, but it requires more than just "hard work ethic" to blaze both McLarren's from a standing start. It requires raw power. I am also not suggesting that Ferrari are up to anything illegal here. I'm sure they're smart enough to keep their hands clean. I hope you see what i'm getting at though. What are your thoughts?

[Rivelution]

Hi everyone,

What a great forum, can't believe I didn't find this place sooner.

I would just like say somethings that's on my mind about Massa's engine failure. It seems really suspicious to me. If you consider that the Hungaroring is not demanding on engines (i think it's 50% on full throttle, which is way bellow average) a driver is less likely to have an engine blow out there than practically any other circuit. Also, when watching the on board shots of the Ferrari it didn't seem like they had totally ironed out all the handling problems that have made them slow over the previous two races. Despite this both Ferrari's were fast this weekend, I know it took Raikonen a while to show the cars true potential, but finishing the race with the fastest lap is the proof. Massa's speed off the starting line was incredible. The McLarren's did not have a bad start, their start was relatively good compared to the field, but their start was not good enough compared to Massa's. It seems to me that Ferrari have pushed their car to be ruthlessly quick in a straight line (Ferrari have always been renowned for their engine speed anyway) in order to be competitive with McLarren, and it worked a charm. The only downside is they must have got their calculations slightly wrong. Massa needed 7(?) more laps out of it in order to claim the prize.

Just to be clear, i'm not putting Massa's excellent performance to shame, but it requires more than just "hard work ethic" to blaze both McLarren's from a standing start. It requires raw power. I am also not suggesting that Ferrari are up to anything illegal here. I'm sure they're smart enough to keep their hands clean. I hope you see what i'm getting at though. What are your thoughts?

Thats one hell of a conspiracy. Anyways welcome

[Matkins]

Thats one hell of a conspiracy. Anyways welcome

I wouldn't really say conspiracy. It's just everyone is saying how unlucky Massa has been, and sure it is bad luck for Massa, but perhaps for Ferrari this is the repercussions of the way they've decided to improve their car's performance at the cost of reliability.

[Hanwombat]

Massa is good, something bad has happened and yes it cost him the race but he should now look on and forward to Valencia, the championship is still wide open and after his race yesterday I think he is a rightful contender

[Rivelution]

Thats one hell of a conspiracy. Anyways welcome

I wouldn't really say conspiracy. It's just everyone is saying how unlucky Massa has been, and sure it is bad luck for Massa, but perhaps for Ferrari this is the repercussions of the way they've decided to improve their car's performance at the cost of reliability.

Yeah and Raikkonen had a problem at the very end of the race, and Ferrari hasnt said what the problem was.

[Denthúl]

Well, put it this way. Without the engine failure, this would have been his fourth

put it this way without Kimis exhaust failure this would have been his third...

put it this way without Lewis' tyre failure this would have been his 5th

Maybe it would, but we'll never know if he would have been able to leapfrog Massa now, unfortunately.

Well, put it this way. Without the engine failure, this would have been his fourth and he would have matched Hamilton for the season's win rate and, even more so, would have been beating Hamilton on points.

The problem I have about this kind of talk is that it's a one-sided "if" scenario. If Massa's engine hadn't failed, he would have passed up Hamilton in the points. It's no more fair to if this than it would be to if Hamilton, talking about if his tire hadn't failed. Hamilton was holding a strong second place, and if his tire hadn't failed he could have, and should have, held onto his second place position to the end of the race, and then Massa would not have passed him in the overall point standings, even if neither of them had suffered the issues that they had, because Hamilton had a lot more than just two points over Massa going into Hungary.

Massa should have finished in first and Hamilton probably should have been standing next to him on the podium, but Hamilton blew a tire and then Massa blew an engine. It's no more fair or accurate to throw an if scenario at one of them and not at the other. If we're going to discuss what would have been if Massa hadn't blown an engine, we should also talk about it if Hamilton hadn't blown a tire. If neither failure occurred, Massa still wouldn't have overtaken Hamilton in the points.

I think both of you have missed what I was getting at. I posted it to highlight the fact that he's doing enough to take victories on a regular basis in a top-level car, it had nothing to do with trying to prove the 'if' scenarios.

[bud]

no i didnt miss the point, but what if i did.....

[PetroTK40]

no i didnt miss the point, but what if i did.....

[profiterolis]

Massa's detractors are mostly in the British press. It is uncanny the way they magnify
his errors and diminish his triumphs:

"...the Ferrari was not the car to be in at Budapest, and Massa found
himself in contention for victory when he really shouldn’t have been.
Fair does you might say, after all Hamilton was well poised for victory
himself had it not been for his own run-in with lady-luck
(a left-front puncture cruelly intervened mid-race and dropped him to
fifth at the flag)..."
By Christopher Hayes on Sunday, August 3, 2008
Filed Under: F1 News

As I read about F1 in other languages, I see just the description of a race car driver with his ups
and downs. Duly praise when he does well and objective criticism when he does not.

What's with the "Massa tracks"? He would have won Monaco if it wasn't for the team's poor strategy choices.
Massa and came a great 3rd at Hockenheim with virtually no rear brakes:
"Ferrari's President Luca De Montezemolo must have thought [when Hamilton passed Massa]:
'This bloke will never be world champion!'"
James Allen, ITV-F1

Does anyone takes this kind of "reporting" seriously? When they want your opinion they'll give it to you.
This is ridiculous.
Go Massa!

[darwin dali]

Massa's detractors are mostly in the British press. It is uncanny the way they magnify
his errors and diminish his triumphs:

"...the Ferrari was not the car to be in at Budapest, and Massa found
himself in contention for victory when he really shouldn’t have been.
Fair does you might say, after all Hamilton was well poised for victory
himself had it not been for his own run-in with lady-luck
(a left-front puncture cruelly intervened mid-race and dropped him to
fifth at the flag)..."
By Christopher Hayes on Sunday, August 3, 2008
Filed Under: F1 News

As I read about F1 in other languages, I see just the description of a race car driver with his ups
and downs. Duly praise when he does well and objective criticism when he does not.

What's with the "Massa tracks"? He would have won Monaco if it wasn't for the team's poor strategy choices.
Massa and came a great 3rd at Hockenheim with virtually no rear brakes:
"Ferrari's President Luca De Montezemolo must have thought [when Hamilton passed Massa]:
'This bloke will never be world champion!'"
James Allen, ITV-F1

Does anyone takes this kind of "reporting" seriously? When they want your opinion they'll give it to you.
This is ridiculous.
Go Massa!

Hear, hear!

Luckily I'm not exposed to that kind of FM smear press here in the US

Go Felipe

[welshie]

Massa's detractors are mostly in the British press. It is uncanny the way they magnify
his errors and diminish his triumphs:

"...the Ferrari was not the car to be in at Budapest, and Massa found
himself in contention for victory when he really shouldn’t have been.
Fair does you might say, after all Hamilton was well poised for victory
himself had it not been for his own run-in with lady-luck
(a left-front puncture cruelly intervened mid-race and dropped him to
fifth at the flag)..."
By Christopher Hayes on Sunday, August 3, 2008
Filed Under: F1 News

As I read about F1 in other languages, I see just the description of a race car driver with his ups
and downs. Duly praise when he does well and objective criticism when he does not.

What's with the "Massa tracks"? He would have won Monaco if it wasn't for the team's poor strategy choices.
Massa and came a great 3rd at Hockenheim with virtually no rear brakes:
"Ferrari's President Luca De Montezemolo must have thought [when Hamilton passed Massa]:
'This bloke will never be world champion!'"
James Allen, ITV-F1

Does anyone takes this kind of "reporting" seriously? When they want your opinion they'll give it to you.
This is ridiculous.
Go Massa!

Then don't read the British press

[texasmr2]

And his masterful driving (incl. passing both McLarens which according to you Chris counts double in Hungary ) should silence his detractors. It was a championship worthy drive.

I agree and was yelling 'hell yah Massa now your driving like the WDC that
I think you can be'. It was truelly a great drive.

[digitaleye]

Then don't read the British press

Not Possible. There's no question (IMHO) that the British coverage in print and on TV is vastly superior to anything I've found (in English) worldwide. I've been watching the ITV broadcasts of F1 races for the past years or so and while I really didn't dislike the SPEED coverage here in the US, the ITV coverage is much more comprehensive and the commentators are there at the track and on the grid at all the races. As far as I know there is no print coverage of F1 in the US. All that said, ever since Lewis came onto the scene its gotten a bit ridiculous, much like parents watching their own child perform, anything lewis does is right and anything anyone else does (especially if it involves Lewis) is somehow bad. I still like the coverage it's just horribly unbalanced nowadays. I just chalk it up to that inter-European competitiveness.

On concession though, I do remember that both Rider and Blundell giving Massa credit for his great drive a the end of the race.