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[deMuRe]

You just hit on the difference between Ferrari and any other team...

Good point DD...

[vegas]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

[deMuRe]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

I'd agree with this totally. Certain drivers wouldn't want to drive for McLaren out of principal...

[Ron Dennis]

You just hit on the difference between Ferrari and any other team...

And how do you make that out. Ferrari dominated 2000-2004, renaullt 2005 and 2006 (pre-FIA)

McLaren won nothing in that time, but wernt as bad as was being implied

lean years as far as championship are concerned, but certainly no reason to prefer BMW over McLaren.

[Ron Dennis]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

I'd agree with this totally. Certain drivers wouldn't want to drive for McLaren out of principal...

thats just too funny

[deMuRe]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

I'd agree with this totally. Certain drivers wouldn't want to drive for McLaren out of principal...

thats just too funny

Seriously RD, all of a sudden they are fast and caught with a Ferrari technical document. They are fined and have essentially been accused of cheating.

If I were a driver I would think about my personal reputation and how this would be effected after joining McLaren so soon after receiving the largest fine in sporting history...

[Ron Dennis]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

i kind of messed up how i set out my stats when jotting them down, I should have started with 2000 and 2001 finishing second

Nothing on the McLaren has been inspired by Ferrari. This is just silliness from your mind – the car was the most scrutinized in 2007! The designs are completely different, hign nose long wheelbase….oh but yeah maybe they copied the rear mounted engine and 4 wheel principle?
And also now we have it that Nick is too good for McLaren? That is just laughable if it were not for the fact that you seem as though you have convinced yourself of this! Where do you get off on declaring a second rate driver being too good to the second most successful F1 team in F1, the most successful in the 20th century and the winners of this years WCC? Oh and possible winners of the WDC if the FIA has played fair!
The evolution of (some of) the Ferrari fans attitudes over the last 12 month is quite amazing. From “yeah Schumacher/Ferrari cheat but we don’t careâ€

[Ron Dennis]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

I'd agree with this totally. Certain drivers wouldn't want to drive for McLaren out of principal...

thats just too funny

Seriously RD, all of a sudden they are fast and caught with a Ferrari technical document. They are fined and have essentially been accused of cheating.

If I were a driver I would think about my personal reputation and how this would be effected after joining McLaren so soon after receiving the largest fine in sporting history...

You can deny it as much as you like, but you and everyone else knows that any driver currently in f1 would drive for McLaren in 08 - apart from Massa and Raikkonen of course, but not because they are holier than thou - but more their car is better.
Ferrari are not the clean team you are trying to convince yourself they are. And they were not clean in 2007.

[deMuRe]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

i kind of messed up how i set out my stats when jotting them down, I should have started with 2000 and 2001 finishing second

Nothing on the McLaren has been inspired by Ferrari. This is just silliness from your mind – the car was the most scrutinized in 2007! The designs are completely different, hign nose long wheelbase….oh but yeah maybe they copied the rear mounted engine and 4 wheel principle?
And also now we have it that Nick is too good for McLaren? That is just laughable if it went for the fact that you seem as though you have convinced yourself of this! Where do you get off on declaring a second rate driver being too good to the second most successful F1 team in F1, the most successful in the 20th century and the winners of this years WDC? Oh and possible winners of the WDC if the FIA has played fair!
The evolution of (some of) the Ferrari fans attitudes over the last 12 month is quite amazing. From “yeah Schumacher/Ferrari cheat but we don’t careâ€

[racechick]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

I'd agree with this totally. Certain drivers wouldn't want to drive for McLaren out of principal...

Yeah right
Thay wouldnt want to drive for McLaren, Get real!

[Ron Dennis]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

Its actually a little worse then you stated.

2002 Fifth & Sixth in drivers and Third in Constructors.

2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, Last. It seemed like there being dragged behind like an old shoe, eating off the crumbs. Then they came out of nowhere with the ultra fast and reliable MP4-22, which later turned out to be "Inspired" by Ferrari. McLaren Fan is right. A class act driver like Heidfeld would never sign with a team like McLaren under the current circumstances.

i kind of messed up how i set out my stats when jotting them down, I should have started with 2000 and 2001 finishing second

Nothing on the McLaren has been inspired by Ferrari. This is just silliness from your mind – the car was the most scrutinized in 2007! The designs are completely different, hign nose long wheelbase….oh but yeah maybe they copied the rear mounted engine and 4 wheel principle?
And also now we have it that Nick is too good for McLaren? That is just laughable if it went for the fact that you seem as though you have convinced yourself of this! Where do you get off on declaring a second rate driver being too good to the second most successful F1 team in F1, the most successful in the 20th century and the winners of this years WDC? Oh and possible winners of the WDC if the FIA has played fair!
The evolution of (some of) the Ferrari fans attitudes over the last 12 month is quite amazing. From “yeah Schumacher/Ferrari cheat but we don’t careâ€

[deMuRe]

If you read Autosport (called "The Comic" by those in the pitlane) then yes Ferrari have cheated their way through F1 since Moses wore short-pants...

But there is a big wide world out there that doesn't involve the British Media and funnily enough Ferrari is not in bed with the FIA and they are successful because of hard work and good management... (minus a little bit of cheating and spying all the teams have done since day 1)...

[vegas]

[quote="Ron Dennis"]
i kind of messed up how i set out my stats when jotting them down, I should have started with 2000 and 2001 finishing second

Nothing on the McLaren has been inspired by Ferrari. This is just silliness from your mind – the car was the most scrutinized in 2007! The designs are completely different, hign nose long wheelbase….oh but yeah maybe they copied the rear mounted engine and 4 wheel principle?
And also now we have it that Nick is too good for McLaren? That is just laughable if it went for the fact that you seem as though you have convinced yourself of this! Where do you get off on declaring a second rate driver being too good to the second most successful F1 team in F1, the most successful in the 20th century and the winners of this years WDC? Oh and possible winners of the WDC if the FIA has played fair!
The evolution of (some of) the Ferrari fans attitudes over the last 12 month is quite amazing. From “yeah Schumacher/Ferrari cheat but we don’t careâ€

[darwin dali]

Hey vegas, seems like your honeymoon recharged your batteries and you're all fired up!

Go BMW-Sauber!!
(I like to call them by their full name to honor Peter)

[McLaren Fan]

McLaren were coned into last year’s car, I’ll have to publish that story sometime

but

2001 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2002 Second in Drivers and Constructors
2003 Third Constructors
2004 Disastrous start with strong car by the end of the season
2005 10 wins in the season - more than any other team
2006 Were fooled into building a car around the single race tyre strategy
2007 Won the WDC and second in the drivers due to the other team using illegal team orders

its not that bad.....and remember that Ferrari had a s*** time during the late 70's, 80's and 90's but no one suggested NOT driving for them!

As much as I love McLaren, I'm not afraid to criticise them - constructively- if I feel they're doing a good enough job. It's the with other teams I follow in other sports and in my own work. Distant seconds are not good enough for a team of McLaren's calibre. In the years you and I quoted, let's be honest, McLaren had two championship worthy cars and in at least one of those years the car was not even worthy of winning a Grand Prix. I'm not saying drivers should not come to McLaren because McLaren have the people and the infrastructure there to be the very best team and a good driver would certainly bring that out. But what I was saying is that given McLaren's inconsistency in the last lot of years the team producing a decent car next season is by no means certain. Factor in FIA involvement and it becomes less certain.