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[stonemonkey]

...........

Hi stonemonkey,

The communication to Lewis at the end of the race rubs me the wrong way I guess because it was not related to the racing but was to try to react to the possibility of a penalty which has nothing to the race itself, ie Vettel was under control so there is no racing reason for Lewis to speed up. The proof of this to me is that they even had to issue a gag order to Lewis to try and keep the pretense of being within the rules on driver communications.

ps. I would say that just issuing the 'gag order' itself probably violates the communications rules!

I don't know what you're saying, he was told it would be explained after the race, I don't see anything suspicious about that since trying to explain the situation over the radio during the race would just be a big distraction. There is no gag orders on discussing penalties or possibility of penalties with drivers over the radio. I don't think merc were even sure what penalty could be given to them but they were just trying to cover the 25 second penalty in case they picked that up.

[sagi58]

... Look up gay lussac's law.

I'm not going to pretend to understand physics; but, I do wonder if this "practice" doesn't give Mercedes an edge?
That is, there might be some benefit from heating, cooling and then reheating the tires instead of keeping them at
the same temperature for a longer time. Maybe there is some sort of heat stress that is alleviated on the tires?

I guess we'll find out at the next race, when the other teams might copy this practice during practice?

[overboost]

What on earth are you on about, they didn't get caught doing anything. This is all caused by the way the FIA handled the situation and not taking into account the conditions when they measured the pressures. Yes, Merc run the pressures as low as they can get away with and yes, when the tyre pressures were taken when the tyres were cold the pressures were below the limit but the tyres were heated up before the race start meaning that the cars never ran on under inflated tyres. Look up gay lussac's law.

Merc were letting their tires cool down (they turned off their tire blankets!) and were caught out by the new unexpected on-grid FIA test. They thought the only check was the one in the pit garage. The Ferrari's passed but both Merc's were too low. Also remember to that on the formation lap the drivers do all they can to just try to maintain the heat in the tires and sitting on the grid (Merc the longest) the tires cool even more.

Yes they got away with it when they told the stewards that once they got up to racing speeds the pressures were ok for the race but the rule is all about the pressure at the start. So really the stewards were very 'gracious' in accepting this and giving Merc a pass.

Scarbs explains things quite well.

Scarbs: "Mercedes dodged a bullet"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0daJ2Q8ovvk

Pat Symonds though was straight to the point!

PS - “If you’re a millimeter too wide on your wings you’re thrown out,” said Pat Symonds, the technical director of the Williams team, indicating that it should be no different with tires.

[sagi58]

...Scarbs explains things quite well.

Scarbs: "Mercedes dodged a bullet"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0daJ2Q8ovvk ...

That was interesting! Apparently, AFTER the warm-up lap Mercedes actually take the tires
off the car, which then sits on jacks, while it's on the grid (1:20), the tires are in their blankets,
which were unplugged. And, that's why they were under the recommended pressure. There
is a safety reason, since running too low on higher speed circuits, where tires are then more
susceptible to cuts on curbs and debris (such as Vettel and Rosberg suffered at Spa).

At 4:04 of the video, there is an explanation of how Mercedes "got away with it" and what the
penalty might have been had they not, because it seems to be a safety issue.

[stonemonkey]

They followed the guidelines given by and were monitored by pirelli, who also specified the limit, there is a problem somewhere between the guidelines and how the tests were conducted and not how Mercedes conducted themselves. There's also a problem with how the FIA handled it so there's a few things to get sorted out for the next race, looks like this is Mercedes being caught out by poorly made regulations and guidelines being rushed in after Spa.

Anyway, it was left open to appeal so any team could dispute the decision and no one has.

[stonemonkey]

This is a bit more interesting, explained a bit better than Scarbs.

http://uk.motorsport.com/f1/news/italia ... ole-story/
Pirelli, who specify the limits, define the starting pressure as the pressure while still in heated blankets and accept that when removed or switched off the temp and pressure will drop, The FIA were not working to pirelli procedures in taking the pressures when they did.

The Stewards also accepted that once the cars started moving, the tyres heated up again, and the pressures went up. Indeed, data from the cars showed that throughout the race the Mercedes tyres stayed well above the minimum requirement, and the FIA was satisfied by that.

That would suggest to me that the tyres heated up on the formation lap and that by the race start the pressures were acceptable.

[sagi58]

Just another one of those "grey" areas where teams interpret rules to their benefit.
It also goes to prove that no matter how diligent the FIA is, they can't ever think of
every single eventuality that can surface at every single track every year. Thus, the
rules/regulations have to be a work in progress and not set in stone.


p.s. Good on Mercedes for finding that extra little something!

[stonemonkey]

Just another one of those "grey" areas where teams interpret rules to their benefit.
It also goes to prove that no matter how diligent the FIA is, they can't ever think of
every single eventuality that can surface at every single track every year. Thus, the
rules/regulations have to be a work in progress and not set in stone.


p.s. Good on Mercedes for finding that extra little something!

This all really should have been a non issue, but due to a lack of diligence by the FIA it became one. There's no extra little something, Mercedes were not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes or do anything underhand.
Procedures are put in place and followed so that everything that needs to be done is done, and in the right order so that everything is prepared with the minimum of mistakes, remember Buttons bungs being left in his sidepods in Monaco, a case of unexpected changes affecting procedure. Mercedes have a procedure that they follow which involves turning the blankets off early and Pirelli were well aware of that and allowed it even with the recent changes in the name of safety and they saw no issue with it within their guidelines.
The FIA weren't aware of this or of pirellis stance though and made a mess of the situation.

[stonemonkey]

...........

I guess we'll find out at the next race, when the other teams might copy this practice during practice?

You don't think teams keep a close eye on each other all the time and any way they can and already knew their practices?

[sagi58]

Just another one of those "grey" areas where teams interpret rules to their benefit.
It also goes to prove that no matter how diligent the FIA is, they can't ever think of
every single eventuality that can surface at every single track every year. Thus, the
rules/regulations have to be a work in progress and not set in stone.


p.s. Good on Mercedes for finding that extra little something!

This all really should have been a non issue, but due to a lack of diligence by the FIA it became one. There's no extra little something, Mercedes were not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes or do anything underhand...

I didn't accuse them of doing anything underhanded.
It's good that teams look for anything they can that will give them an edge.
And, if they find a way and it's not categorically illegal, then why the hell not??

[sagi58]

...........

I guess we'll find out at the next race, when the other teams might copy this practice during practice?

You don't think teams keep a close eye on each other all the time and any way they can and already knew their practices?

They may have noticed what Mercedes were doing; but, obviously didn't think anything of it.
We'll soon find out just how many more teams will be doing the same thing at the next race!!

[overboost]

This is a bit more interesting, explained a bit better than Scarbs.

http://uk.motorsport.com/f1/news/italia ... ole-story/
Pirelli, who specify the limits, define the starting pressure as the pressure while still in heated blankets and accept that when removed or switched off the temp and pressure will drop, The FIA were not working to pirelli proceduresin taking the pressures when they did.

The Stewards also accepted that once the cars started moving, the tyres heated up again, and the pressures went up. Indeed, data from the cars showed that throughout the race the Mercedes tyres stayed well above the minimum requirement, and the FIA was satisfied by that.

That would suggest to me that the tyres heated up on the formation lap and that by the race start the pressures were acceptable.

stonemonkey in the article you linked it actually says that Pirelli was in full agreement with the surprise on-grid checks by the FIA!

"On this occasion the FIA decided to impose its own extra surprise checks at a late stage, between 3-5 minutes before the start, having agreed such a strategy with Pirelli on Sunday morning."

Another point of interest is that the when the FIA took the pressures they also tested the temperature of the tires and found it within spec! To me this in another indication that Merc simply didn't have enough 'air' in the tires to meet the minimum standard at the race start.

The Technical Delegate’s findings:

The tread surface temperature of the left hand side rear tyre of car numbers 44, 06, 05 and 07 was within the specification of the official Formula One tyre supplier.

The measured minimum tyre starting pressure of the left hand side rear tyre of car numbers 05 and 07 was above the specified minimum tyre starting pressure.

The measured minimum tyre starting pressure of the left hand side rear tyre of car number 44 was 0.3 PSI below the specified minimum tyre starting pressure and the measured minimum tyre starting pressure of car number 06 was 1.1 PSI below the specified minimum tyre starting pressure.http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/09/06/m ... ringement/

Also it was the 'race working pressures' that Merc quoted and which the Stewards accepted in their decision to let Merc off the hook. The formation lap pressures were not disclosed by Mercedes afaik. And no one has published the actual race start pressure even though there must be a sensor in those tires! Even my cars have them.

Imo it is most likely that Merc was just letting the tires cool off while waiting on the grid for the formation lap in order to get that better grip at the start and were not expecting the surprise test. The pressures were just allowed to go to low.

[stonemonkey]

This is a bit more interesting, explained a bit better than Scarbs.

http://uk.motorsport.com/f1/news/italia ... ole-story/
Pirelli, who specify the limits, define the starting pressure as the pressure while still in heated blankets and accept that when removed or switched off the temp and pressure will drop, The FIA were not working to pirelli proceduresin taking the pressures when they did.

The Stewards also accepted that once the cars started moving, the tyres heated up again, and the pressures went up. Indeed, data from the cars showed that throughout the race the Mercedes tyres stayed well above the minimum requirement, and the FIA was satisfied by that.

That would suggest to me that the tyres heated up on the formation lap and that by the race start the pressures were acceptable.

stonemonkey in the article you linked it actually says that Pirelli was in full agreement with the surprise on-grid checks by the FIA!

"On this occasion the FIA decided to impose its own extra surprise checks at a late stage, between 3-5 minutes before the start, having agreed such a strategy with Pirelli on Sunday morning."

Yep you're right, but that's where the lack of communication lay and once that was explained to the stewards there was no case to answer to.

Another point of interest is that the when the FIA took the pressures they also tested the temperature of the tires and found it within spec! To me this in another indication that Merc simply didn't have enough 'air' in the tires to meet the minimum standard at the race start.

That doesn't really indicate anything of the sort, the pressures and temperature when they were set under the supervision of pirelli were all within limits so by definition by pirelli they did have enough air.

The Technical Delegate’s findings:

The tread surface temperature of the left hand side rear tyre of car numbers 44, 06, 05 and 07 was within the specification of the official Formula One tyre supplier.

The measured minimum tyre starting pressure of the left hand side rear tyre of car numbers 05 and 07 was above the specified minimum tyre starting pressure.

The measured minimum tyre starting pressure of the left hand side rear tyre of car number 44 was 0.3 PSI below the specified minimum tyre starting pressure and the measured minimum tyre starting pressure of car number 06 was 1.1 PSI below the specified minimum tyre starting pressure.http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/09/06/m ... ringement/

Also it was the 'race working pressures' that Merc quoted and which the Stewards accepted in their decision to let Merc off the hook. The formation lap pressures were not disclosed by Mercedes afaik. And no one has published the actual race start pressure even though there must be a sensor in those tires! Even my cars have them.

Imo it is most likely that Merc was just letting the tires cool off while waiting on the grid for the formation lap in order to get that better grip at the start and were not expecting the surprise test. The pressures were just allowed to go to low.

Seriously? You think they kept tyre temps low so they would have low pressures for getting off the start line and then heading into the first chicane! On cold tyres!

[overboost]

More likely the 'lack of communication' issue was probably that Pirelli decided that it didn't want to be the center of another tire related PR disaster (right after the Spa exploding tires) and declared the surprise tests they had previously agreed to were no longer valid. So they just reverted to their pit box checks and Merc is in the clear!

And yes lowering the tire pressures gets you more grip and a better start which is likely what Merc was up to imo by unplugging their warmers on the grid. Listen to that Scarbs video starting at 3:35, he explains it well.

[stonemonkey]

Sounds like scarbs is talking out his ring, when have you ever heard of any driver wanting cool tyres at race start or safety car re start so they have better grip?