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#262479
Seems RB couldn't do without the overrun even for this one race. Here they are practicing changing steering wheel - which will mean they can use overrun in Q, then change to race mode at their first pit stop. Means they will have to carry extra fuel and will stress their engine.
Image


I caught that yesterday.



lol, they'll have to pit early to avoid engine trouble...i can see it going wrong for them tomorrow, looking forward to another Mclaren win.
User avatar
By spankyham
#262480
First, was this in a practice session of Valencia?

Yep, practiced repeatedly during practice session.

Second, are you certain (just i know) that they were changing the steering wheel to see how they could turn OVERRUN on and off through steering wheels, or were they doing that for engine mapping ( as in the wheel loading settings as its put on)?

Yep, certain. The only way to change overrun mappings is to connect a laptop and download or replace the whole computer (steering wheel). Previously RB would run their extreme overrun settings in Q3, then, in park ferme attach a laptop and download the race settings. These cannot be changed by the driver on the fly, they need to be dowmloaded. So, we can be sure RB ran Q with some degree of overrun, we just don't know how much.

And why will they have to carry extra fuel and stress the engine, or do you mean that they will in relation to the other teams in the first stint of the race?

One aspect of overrun is where the valve and ignition positions are changed so that fuel passes through the pot without being ignited. When it reaches the exhaust (very hot) it combusts and creates an exhaust gas flow to feed the diffuser (that farting sound you hear from the cars sometimes). So, the car is constantly using fuel even when off throttle - hence the need to carry extra fuel to do this.

Engine stress comes in two main ways. Firstly, the ignition timing can be changed slightly to gain a bit more power, at the cost of stressing the engine and secondly a great deal more heat is generated within the exhaust (the fuel that is now being combusted in there).
User avatar
By FRAFPDD
#262481
So basically they were seeing how theyd be performing from silverstone, as they were practicising without the EBD/Overun?


Any whizzkid got comparable times of how slower they were without it?


Someone said they dont think its one small thing its just a good package on the red bull, but i doubt it.

The Mclarens of 88 had the engines (and drivers mind) the Ferrari of 90 had the paddleshift gearbox, the williams of 93 had the electronics, the renault of 05 had the mass damper, the brawn of 09 had the double diffuser.


I find it extrememly hard to believe they have such an advantage as theyve had from 2010 through a good overall package, theres something theyve got none of the others do.
User avatar
By nish2280
#262484
Anyone notice Vettel having a look at the Ferrari steering wheel after quali? Could this be related?

Maybe he was checking if Ferrari were doing the same thing or checking if their release mechanism was better than theirs (seemed to be looking at back of steering wheel).
#262518
Anyone notice Vettel having a look at the Ferrari steering wheel after quali? Could this be related?

Maybe he was checking if Ferrari were doing the same thing or checking if their release mechanism was better than theirs (seemed to be looking at back of steering wheel).

I remember SV looking at LH's MacLaren after quali...
User avatar
By racechick
#262522
Anyone notice Vettel having a look at the Ferrari steering wheel after quali? Could this be related?

Maybe he was checking if Ferrari were doing the same thing or checking if their release mechanism was better than theirs (seemed to be looking at back of steering wheel).

I remember SV looking at LH's MacLaren after quali...


Why you think he did that? You think he havin a laugh? His car goes faster!
#262524
Anyone notice Vettel having a look at the Ferrari steering wheel after quali? Could this be related?

Maybe he was checking if Ferrari were doing the same thing or checking if their release mechanism was better than theirs (seemed to be looking at back of steering wheel).

I remember SV looking at LH's MacLaren after quali...


Why you think he did that? You think he havin a laugh? His car goes faster!

Maybe checking whether they have a similar quick-switch gizmo for the steering wheel? :wink:
User avatar
By FRAFPDD
#262556
still dont get why they practiced steering wheel changes, to get round the ban on quali-race engine mapping ban, or to see just during that practice session what having no EBD is like, if its the latter, i dont see how the steering wheel alone can change that. If its the former, changing the steering wheel doesnt eradicate the fact that you still cant change the engine map from what it was in quali. Help?
#262557
still dont get why they practiced steering wheel changes, to get round the ban on quali-race engine mapping ban, or to see just during that practice session what having no EBD is like, if its the latter, i dont see how the steering wheel alone can change that. If its the former, changing the steering wheel doesnt eradicate the fact that you still cant change the engine map from what it was in quali. Help?

They could switch the steering wheel back during the final pit stop... :twisted:
User avatar
By FRAFPDD
#262559
still dont get why they practiced steering wheel changes, to get round the ban on quali-race engine mapping ban, or to see just during that practice session what having no EBD is like, if its the latter, i dont see how the steering wheel alone can change that. If its the former, changing the steering wheel doesnt eradicate the fact that you still cant change the engine map from what it was in quali. Help?

They could switch the steering wheel back during the final pit stop... :twisted:


?
#262560
still dont get why they practiced steering wheel changes, to get round the ban on quali-race engine mapping ban, or to see just during that practice session what having no EBD is like, if its the latter, i dont see how the steering wheel alone can change that. If its the former, changing the steering wheel doesnt eradicate the fact that you still cant change the engine map from what it was in quali. Help?

They could switch the steering wheel back during the final pit stop... :twisted:


?

They switch a first time to change engine mapping for the bulk of the race (first pit stop), then they switch back during the final pit stop to change the engine mapping to what it was during quali. Hence, when scrutinized after the race by the stewards, it'll look as if they didn't change a thing and conformed with the regs.
User avatar
By FRAFPDD
#262562
still dont get why they practiced steering wheel changes, to get round the ban on quali-race engine mapping ban, or to see just during that practice session what having no EBD is like, if its the latter, i dont see how the steering wheel alone can change that. If its the former, changing the steering wheel doesnt eradicate the fact that you still cant change the engine map from what it was in quali. Help?

They could switch the steering wheel back during the final pit stop... :twisted:


?

They switch a first time to change engine mapping for the bulk of the race (first pit stop), then they switch back during the final pit stop to change the engine mapping to what it was during quali. Hence, when scrutinized after the race by the stewards, it'll look as if they didn't change a thing and conformed with the regs.



Ah i see, so basically, because the pit stops are around the time vettel in particular turns off and on the fast engine settings, this rule is actually utter crud. It doesnt change a thing? They just have to put a different steering wheel on twice.
#262567
More blather from Charlie Whiting, courtesy of PitPass.com, excerpted verbatim as suits my bent:

Q&A with Charlie Whiting

25/06/2011

Engine map change restrictions

PP-What will happen if the weather conditions change between qualifying and the race?
CW- We will allow certain changes to be made for ambient conditions. Normally, we only announce a change of climatic conditions if one (session) is dry and one is wet, but we have indicated to the teams that if there is a change in ambient temperature of more than 10°C between qualifying and the race, we would allow them to compensate for that. But that's all.
[And what if the temperature should change a further 10°C during the race? Or even just 5°C?]

PP-What is the goal of implementing this change?
CW- A team can't have a base map in the ECU that is only good for a few laps. If you want to use it, you have to use it for the whole race.
[Please cite for me in TR where it forbids a team having an "ECU that is only good for a few laps."]

PP-Why do you want to see this stopped?
CW- Because it's illegal.
[So why didn't you penalise the teams in violation and leave everyone else the hell alone?]

PP-Why will the off-throttle blown diffusers be banned from Silverstone onwards?
CW- We know exhaust gasses have an influence on the aerodynamic performance of the car and we accept that. The point is that a design should not attempt to use the exhaust for a completely different reason (aerodynamics as a primary, rather than a secondary effect).
[Please cite for me in TR where it forbids that a team might "attempt to use the exhaust for a completely different reason."]

PP-What are the new operating conditions with regard to throttle-opening and spark?
CW- We're saying that if a driver comes off the throttle - zero pedal - then the throttles have got to be (maximum) 10 per cent open at 12,000rpm and (maximum) 20 per cent open at 18,000rpm.
[So that still means I can run 100% throttle, 18,000rpm and 0° spark advance at 1% pedal, yes?]

PP-Why will this ban appear at Silverstone? Why not earlier?
CW- Our argument is that there is a strong case to suggest they (blown diffusers) are illegal. Ultimately, the stewards will decide.
[So you admit you presently are restricting use of technology without knowing to a certainty it is illegal. Why?]

CW- We have not had protests yet. I think we got close to a protest in Monaco. I gave the team in question an assurance that we were going to follow this through; we weren't going to give it up. On that basis we haven't had any protests yet, though I have always emphasised to the teams that this option is open to them.
[Mr. Whiting, did you by chance note that this team that "got close to a protest in Monaco," HRT, showed up for the very next race running the very same device on their cars? Can you state now to a certainty that their earlier protestations were solely based on the legality of the device and were not merely self-serving whinging?]

PP-There is a perception that decisions like this are political rather than technical, and damage the image of F1. What is your opinion?
CW- I'm aware of some stories being written, but to be frank with you, I know it's not a political decision. I know it's purely a technical intervention on our side and I feel perfectly comfortable with that.
["A purely technical intervention," enforced at mid-season, against a system already in use without consequence over seven races, a system never yet protested, which does not explicitly violate any clause of TR apart your "interpretation," an "interpretation" as yet not validated by the stewards. That about sums it up, does it? The stewards have been tied up since March, have they Charlie?]

PP-In recent years both the F-Duct and the double diffuser have been banned, but not until the end of the season. Would it not be simpler to allow the current technology to stay in place until the end of this year?
CW- No, because the double diffuser and the F-Duct were legal. (In those cases) during the course of the season the teams got together with us and we decided they weren't good for F1 and weren't needed, so we wrote laws to outlaw them. But they complied with the rules, which is why they were allowed to stay until the end of the season. They were completely different to the situation we have now.
[Since by your own admission, the stewards have not yet agreed with your interpretation of TR that exhaust gas overrun is illegal, would not the wiser course of action have been to wait for that pronouncement, then issue a blanket ban, rather than your current piecemeal approach, which only challenges the cleverer of the engineers to find further holes in your preposterously flawed and imprudently timed rule changes? You'll look quite the pikey if those same stewards elect to think (and perhaps actually read the TR) before they speak, won't you Charlie?]

I have it on good authority CW only opens his mouth to change his stockings. Or is that Todt? :hehe:
User avatar
By spankyham
#262574
[Please cite for me in TR where it forbids a team having an "ECU that is only good for a few laps."]

[Please cite for me in TR where it forbids that a team might "attempt to use the exhaust for a completely different reason."]

Article 3.15 is being breached.
any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

It's inherently obvious that the engine is there to propel the car - that is its purpose. However, with overrun, the engine has been given a new task which it can do while it is not "propelling" the car (ie when the driver is off throttle). In this case the engine has a another function. Now the engine is not propelling the car, and it is not doing something to maintain itself, it is being used with the specific purpose of creating a flow to aid its aeros. So when it is doing this (ie it is in the overrun state) it is a "specific part of the car" and it is "influencing its aerodynamic performance". It is also very clear that the engine is not "immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car".

[Mr. Whiting, did you by chance note that this team that "got close to a protest in Monaco," HRT, showed up for the very next race running the very same device on their cars? Can you state now to a certainty that their earlier protestations were solely based on the legality of the device and were not merely self-serving whinging?]

HRT went to Monaco with an EBD, not an extreme overrun mapping - these are different. EBD's are legal and will still exist after Silverstone, extreme overruns are being banned.

[So that still means I can run 100% throttle, 18,000rpm and 0° spark advance at 1% pedal, yes?]

Yes, if a team wanted to do that they could - but advanced ignition (very old concept) is not the extreme overrun that is being banned. Very simply put, the extreme overruns occur by valves be left open with no ignition, the fuel flows through to the pot unignited, and presents itself in the exhaust where the heat of the exhaust ignites the fuel causing the flow.

[So why didn't you penalise the teams in violation and leave everyone else the hell alone?]

Excellent question, they should have banned them before the first race and disqualified all teams using them at the Australian GP.
Last edited by spankyham on 26 Jun 11, 03:05, edited 1 time in total.
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