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[FRAFPDD]

So the FIA are now second in command to your judgement? Those in the know found it legal, its been deemed legal. It is legal.

Why do they have the test, can you answer that? maybe you will understand what is going on here. So please Why do they have the tests on the wings?

They have the tests to see if its legal or not, i think.

The tested the wings and deemed them legal. Youd think thatd be end of story.

And dont get pissy with me with your maybe you will understand, i understand that you are all moaning for nothing.

Your implication is that they have tests purely to say something legal when its clearly illegal, if thats so, then i dont actually know what to say to someone that thinks that.

[bud]

So the FIA are now second in command to your judgement? Those in the know found it legal, its been deemed legal. It is legal.

Why do they have the test, can you answer that? maybe you will understand what is going on here. So please Why do they have the tests on the wings?

They have the tests to see if its legal or not, i think.

The tested the wings and deemed them legal. Youd think thatd be end of story.

And dont get pissy with me with your maybe you will understand, i understand that you are all moaning for nothing.

Your implication is that they have tests purely to say something legal when its clearly illegal, if thats so, then i dont actually know what to say to someone that thinks that.

you dont even know what they are testing for, your only answer is "They have the tests to see if its legal or not, i think."

They are testing the wings to see if they flex beyond a certain load. Ok understand? Anything over this load is cheating as its creating more downforce.

Redbulls wings are passing this test yet on the track are exhibiting flexing greater than how they behaved during the tests. The point to which they are flexing is greater than in the tests on track. Thus illegal!

Can you come back and discuss this when you have something intelligent to add instead of just picking a argument with me!

[Gaz]

Its such a crying shame we have armchair-neweys on here that clearly know much better then say 1000+ collective, technichians, engineers, scientists working for f1 teams like mclaren and ferrari, that red bulls wing is flexing/illegal and we are powerless to stop it.

Would they be the same 1000+ technicians, engineers and scientists who also said mass dampers were ok?

Well im not like some people on here thatll try and blag off something when they dont know what their on about.

As such the mass damper situation is beyond my knowledge, but what i do know, is that it was the STEWARDS and the FIA that decide whether they were ok, not the teams. Kind of renders that example neuteured.

Read up on the mass/j-dampener then come back

I dont need to read up on the mass damper situation? The mass damper has nothing to do with you lot acting like you know better then those people i mentioned.

Its strange too, its only the Mclaren and Ferrari fans that seem to have a problem with it within this thread. Hmmm, theres only one man that can solve this mystery..........COMMON SENSE MAN!

I'm not suggesting i know better than the FIA.

I'm simply disccusing what part of the car is flexing and debating why the FIA arn't picking up it in their tests.

You talk about common sense, but the part is clearly flexing which is against the rules/spirit of the rules so why are the FIA picking up?

Or can we not talk about that Lord FRAFPDD?!

I agree with Bud you sometime seam to just be very argumentative rather than actually discussing anything.

[FRAFPDD]

So the FIA are now second in command to your judgement? Those in the know found it legal, its been deemed legal. It is legal.

Why do they have the test, can you answer that? maybe you will understand what is going on here. So please Why do they have the tests on the wings?

They have the tests to see if its legal or not, i think.

The tested the wings and deemed them legal. Youd think thatd be end of story.

And dont get pissy with me with your maybe you will understand, i understand that you are all moaning for nothing.

Your implication is that they have tests purely to say something legal when its clearly illegal, if thats so, then i dont actually know what to say to someone that thinks that.

you dont even know what they are testing for, your only answer is "They have the tests to see if its legal or not, i think."

They are testing the wings to see if they flex beyond a certain load. Ok understand? Anything over this load is cheating as its creating more downforce.

Redbulls wings are passing this test yet on the track are exhibiting flexing greater than how they behaved during the tests. The point to which they are flexing is greater than in the tests on track. Thus illegal!

Can you come back and discuss this when you have something intelligent to add instead of just picking a argument with me!

I think youll find i said nothing to you, you started "talking" to me.

And the FIA dont video red bulls wing tests do they, SO HOW THE UTTER FIERY HELL would you "know" that they flex more in the race then are doing in the tests?

So your saying even if you did have some evidence from yourself that they flex more in race then they did in the test (that youve never/ didnt seen i remind you) That essentially the rule is: If we test your wing and deem it legal, it cannot flex more then we allowed it during our test on any given race day"

Something is only illegal in F1 when it FAILS the tests designed to conclude its legality, saubers rear wing was measured, a test of its length, and disqualified on it.

Key Note of whole speech: If the FIA design a test, in which flexing below a point will designate a wing is illegal, it is illegal. If the flexing is above the point at which they would deem it illegal. It is legal. The rule is essentially saying that come race day nobody gives a s*it including us if it performs different, as long as its the same component that passed the test,it is the same part, and it did pass the test.

To say the tests are inadequate is COMPLETELY fine, infact encouraged.

To say the Wings are illegal BY DEFINITION is 100 percent wrong.

[FRAFPDD]

Its such a crying shame we have armchair-neweys on here that clearly know much better then say 1000+ collective, technichians, engineers, scientists working for f1 teams like mclaren and ferrari, that red bulls wing is flexing/illegal and we are powerless to stop it.

Would they be the same 1000+ technicians, engineers and scientists who also said mass dampers were ok?

Well im not like some people on here thatll try and blag off something when they dont know what their on about.

As such the mass damper situation is beyond my knowledge, but what i do know, is that it was the STEWARDS and the FIA that decide whether they were ok, not the teams. Kind of renders that example neuteured.

Read up on the mass/j-dampener then come back

I dont need to read up on the mass damper situation? The mass damper has nothing to do with you lot acting like you know better then those people i mentioned.

Its strange too, its only the Mclaren and Ferrari fans that seem to have a problem with it within this thread. Hmmm, theres only one man that can solve this mystery..........COMMON SENSE MAN!

I'm not suggesting i know better than the FIA.

I'm simply disccusing what part of the car is flexing and debating why the FIA arn't picking up it in their tests.

You talk about common sense, but the part is clearly flexing which is against the rules/spirit of the rules so why are the FIA picking up?

Or can we not talk about that Lord FRAFPDD?!

I agree with Bud you sometime seam to just be very argumentative rather than actually discussing anything.

You wont believe me if i said i dont try to be argumentative, but i do try not to, its just i have an unfriendly demeanour im trying to shake.

Also Gaz, your ARE suggesting you know better then the FIA, the moment they said the wings are legal and you (and others) say hang on, they still flex, your doubting the judgement of the FIA (therefore suggesting you yourself know better)

Your not saying your know better, but you all are suggesting it.

You also say why the FIA havent picked it up, they have, they tested it. They deemed it legal.

I really dont know what else i can add, itd be nice if youd all try and counteract what i said with some of your own thoughts, rather then assume im making trouble. You cant just go about making claims in life in general and expect nobody to challenge them. Think of me as the devils advocate for this thread. So far i havent really heard anything that makes me think, hang on, i really cant come back to that argument. And everything ive said has been avoided like a top-flight politician.

[bud]

And the FIA dont video red bulls wing tests do they, SO HOW THE UTTER FIERY HELL would you "know" that they flex more in the race then are doing in the tests?

OMG you have no idea whats so ever this is pointless even discussing this with you! Have you seen the photo evidence shown in this thread? see how far that is bending see how close it is to the ground? If it were to do that in the test it would fail! end of! and you can make any stupid unintelligible comment back to that all you like, In the end you have no idea what so ever and your opinion as far as im concerned is as worth while as a piece of horse s***

[FRAFPDD]

And the FIA dont video red bulls wing tests do they, SO HOW THE UTTER FIERY HELL would you "know" that they flex more in the race then are doing in the tests?

OMG you have no idea whats so ever this is pointless even discussing this with you! Have you seen the photo evidence shown in this thread? see how far that is bending see how close it is to the ground? If it were to do that in the test it would fail! end of! and you can make any stupid unintelligible comment back to that all you like, In the end you have no idea what so ever and your opinion as far as im concerned is as worth while as a piece of horse s***

OK dude no more replies from me.

[Hammer278]

Speaking of flexible front wings, we've had some pretty flexible moderators here to let this thread go this far.

Anyway, I think Redbull are due for a shock. The others are not going to let this go, and this new evidence could lead to some ramifications. We can only wait and watch in the end.

[spankyham]

The current test was discussed so I thought I post a picture of what it actually looks like. The teams bring their wings along and they are tested. Note, they not testing on the car.

[FRAFPDD]

Speaking of flexible front wings, we've had some pretty flexible moderators here to let this thread go this far.

Anyway, I think Redbull are due for a shock. The others are not going to let this go, and this new evidence could lead to some ramifications. We can only wait and watch in the end.

Everyone always says that when theres like a debate, you know things can be debated, its people that just dont accept your point of view unless it compliments theirs like chocolate sauce on a creamy gateau. Thats when it needs to be stopped. Or when it gets to that last post of buds of course.

[spankyham]

I'd also like to suggest that passing a test in no way makes a car legal. Just ask Peter Sauber. His car was passed on Friday and Saturday yet, exactly the same car failed on Sunday.

A test is simply one way to measure against a rule, but it is not the only way. If a thief robs a shop, and the police check the video tape and can't see him on it does that mean he's innocent? Or, perhaps it just means he avoided that camera? Either way, he is a thief. The test is just one way of establishing the fact.

[f1ea]

the reason the wings are still the 'talk of the day' are:
1. team orders are legal... so that's a case closed
2. there's been hardly any controversy... so we have enjoyed one solid race with good results

AND the big reason:

3. they had em last yr... the fia beefed up the tests... everyone thought they knew how to do it, or that they would be declared illegal... and surprise surprise its there, not illegal, RB has an edge of almost 1sec and the other teams cant find a way to do it (otherwise they'd ALL have it). So... if its puzzling the 100+ minds in the FIA, F1 engineers... pat frys... sam michaels... whitmarshes et al....... then it sure as heck should puzzle us armchair aerodynamicists.........

If anyone knows how the heck this is done, let us know!

To say the tests are inadequate is COMPLETELY fine, infact encouraged.

but they may not be inadequate. the reason the rule exists could be to discourage something very different than what RB are doing.

To say the Wings are illegal BY DEFINITION is 100 percent wrong.

They are testing the wings to see if they flex beyond a certain load. Ok understand? Anything over this load is cheating as its creating more downforce.

Redbulls wings are passing this test yet on the track are exhibiting flexing greater than how they behaved during the tests. The point to which they are flexing is greater than in the tests on track. Thus illegal!

no, they are testing the wings to see that they deform in a lineal manner up until a certain load. Any load exhibited on track greater than this load, simply means the real loads are higher than the loads considered by the fia for the test; could be the FIA is only interested in the load range they've specified, not that the RB is experiencing higher loads than allowed. From what i understand, there is no limit on the aerodynamic load applied to the front wing, while the cars are in motion. i'm sure if the loads were greater than the spec range, they would already know, and if it mattered they would have increased yet again the load on the test to those experienced on track...

The other possibility is that the flexing mechanism condition cannot be replicated in the test. i think the way in which the car is held for testing is different than the way in which the car is running, so RB's mechanism is able to behave accordingly for the test (and the loads specified in the test) and differently while on the track (even within the load range). The thing is, the FIA does not have a test for the car in motion, which means they either dont care... or they dont have the means... either way RB is legal.

[f1ea]

Speaking of flexible front wings, we've had some pretty flexible moderators here to let this thread go this far.

as long as it doesnt get locked!
Good thread... naughty boys........ need a weekend at DD's

The current test was discussed so I thought I post a picture of what it actually looks like. The teams bring their wings along and they are tested. Note, they not testing on the car.

excellent!
that explains everything. The actual load conditions are NOT replicated on the test. and the front nose cone can move relative to the entire sprung part of the car, and still not get picked up by the test. RB's mechanism starts where the nose cone ends. i've always said it, the wing itself is not flexing anymore than the rest of the wings.

[FRAFPDD]

I'd also like to suggest that passing a test in no way makes a car legal. Just ask Peter Sauber. His car was passed on Friday and Saturday yet, exactly the same car failed on Sunday.

A test is simply one way to measure against a rule, but it is not the only way. If a thief robs a shop, and the police check the video tape and can't see him on it does that mean he's innocent? Or, perhaps it just means he avoided that camera? Either way, he is a thief. The test is just one way of establishing the fact.

Correct and clever....

But then if we follow that line of thinking, every car on the grid is illegal (at least i can say it is without sounding stupid using your thoughts) because it hasnt been spotted.

I dont get how watching a car can make it illegal (as you are all so adamant it is) and yet, and i quote " passing a test in no way makes a car legal" its double standards really, if not that, then suiting an argument UNOBJECTIVELY to suit your own. Seeing the cars wing flex through racing makes it unquestionable its illegal. But when the FIA do a test on it, its even less clear cut then "our" views. Cant recommend that as a solid base to form an arugment.

[bud]

no, they are testing the wings to see that they deform in a lineal manner up until a certain load. Any load exhibited on track greater than this load, simply means the real loads are higher than the loads considered by the fia for the test; could be the FIA is only interested in the load range they've specified, not that the RB is experiencing higher loads than allowed. From what i understand, there is no limit on the aerodynamic load applied to the front wing, while the cars are in motion. i'm sure if the loads were greater than the spec range, they would already know, and if it mattered they would have increased yet again the load on the test to those experienced on track...

You're playing on words here. End of the day the tests are there to stop wings bending to a certain point. correct? All the fuss (that not only forum members or fan boys, but also its all the teams as well) about RedBull is the fact they are getting their wings lower to the ground than anyone else.
Its now becoming clear its not the wings themselves but the nose that is bending and we all know moving aero is illegal!

remember McLarens Biwing? The FIA instigated they need to make an adjustment by having a the wing attached to the nose cone based alone on video evidence that the wing was moving when in motion. It passed scrutineering and all! funny that...