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[antoniob]

Ok. I'm stopping the whole mclaren study DD. its clear its a lot bigger than me and financial constraints prevents me from carrying on. case and study closed.

[headless]

Button got to F1 on pure luck

[Jensonb]

Jeez what's eating you tonight?? I'd hate to catch you in a bad mood. I was actually singing Jens' praises earler on.
I know about bad luck, if you want to hear real bad luck read Tommy Byrne's book 'Crashed and burned' he was a talent to compare with Senna.I accept some talented drivers dont get a break.

Then why do you keep arguing with me about it ?

[racechick]

Jeez what's eating you tonight?? I'd hate to catch you in a bad mood. I was actually singing Jens' praises earler on.
I know about bad luck, if you want to hear real bad luck read Tommy Byrne's book 'Crashed and burned' he was a talent to compare with Senna.I accept some talented drivers dont get a break.

Then why do you keep arguing with me about it ?

Im not argueing, I have a different viewpoint and you keep bringing in other things that I havent said.

[texasmr2]

Im not argueing.

[racechick]

Im not argueing.

Whats so funny Tex?

[Hansy]

Racechick, I think Jensonb got what I was trying to say. I was not saying Lewis didn't deserve his break. God, he matched the two-time World Champion in his first season, if anyone thinks he's not good or talented they must be blind... what I mean is that he get the right opportunities, he's the only driver I remember to debut into F1 in a team capable of fighting for the championship. He proved he deserved to be there, but what if people didn't notice? His talent would have been wasted.

Look at Kimi. He didn't even have a superlicense when he went into F1, he came out of nowhere, Peter Sauber looked at him, found a huge talent and brought him into F1. It makes me wonder, how many amazing drivers are out there that never get their break? What if a brilliant driver went to an awful team and looked bad because he had a bad car? Most drivers aren't ever given a true chance to show what they're worth of. I get your point, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[antoniob]

Racechick, I think Jensonb got what I was trying to say. I was not saying Lewis didn't deserve his break. God, he matched the two-time World Champion in his first season, if anyone thinks he's not good or talented they must be blind... what I mean is that he get the right opportunities, he's the only driver I remember to debut into F1 in a team capable of fighting for the championship. He proved he deserved to be there, but what if people didn't notice? His talent would have been wasted.

Look at Kimi. He didn't even have a superlicense when he went into F1, he came out of nowhere, Peter Sauber looked at him, found a huge talent and brought him into F1. It makes me wonder, how many amazing drivers are out there that never get their break? What if a brilliant driver went to an awful team and looked bad because he had a bad car? Most drivers aren't ever given a true chance to show what they're worth of. I get your point, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

you guys are breaking all the rules. you messing up racechicks belief system where lewis is concerned including many others as well. you guys are cruel

[racechick]

Racechick, I think Jensonb got what I was trying to say. I was not saying Lewis didn't deserve his break. God, he matched the two-time World Champion in his first season, if anyone thinks he's not good or talented they must be blind... what I mean is that he get the right opportunities, he's the only driver I remember to debut into F1 in a team capable of fighting for the championship. He proved he deserved to be there, but what if people didn't notice? His talent would have been wasted.

Look at Kimi. He didn't even have a superlicense when he went into F1, he came out of nowhere, Peter Sauber looked at him, found a huge talent and brought him into F1. It makes me wonder, how many amazing drivers are out there that never get their break? What if a brilliant driver went to an awful team and looked bad because he had a bad car? Most drivers aren't ever given a true chance to show what they're worth of. I get your point, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Its' ok, I understand what you're saying and have no issue with it. I know some guys dont get the breaks for whatever reason, Tommy Byrne that I mentioned is a classic example. It probably comes down to your definition of 'luck'.

I also know I'm defensive where Lewis is concerned. Ive been a fan of his since way before he was in F1 because of his talent. If you'd been on the forum when he made his debut you'd understand why Im defensive over him.There were a lot of people on here criticising every little thing he did or said, jealousy of some sort I guess. It ranged from they didnt like his dad, his friends, his clothes, his girlfriends, his relationship with McLaren, his driving style,what he said, what he didnt say. It went on and on. So yes I guess Im over defensive where he's concerned. Best just to ignore me when I start

[Ineluke]

Im not being pigheaded.
Yes he asked Ron for help (good idea)
He was told call me in 5 or 6 years, we'll have a look then. (he did, with excellent results behind him so he was taken on the Mclaren programme anlong with other talented youngsters including Roseberg)
Excellent results continued so he stayed on the programme(Roseberg didnt)
And in every category he competed in the excellent results continued.

Sometimes you make your own luck.

Im not saying good or bad luck doesnt exist, course it does-the puncture that ruins a race, the botched pitstop, everyone has their fair share of that-good and bad. But the cream of the drivers rising to the top.....thats not luck.

You really don't get it, do you? You can't just be talented and get to the top automatically. It simply isn't true. It takes more than skill to reach the top in motorsport. Lewis got help to reach F1. Sure, he asked for it, but not everyone gets that opportunity. That's luck. Why is it so hard for you to understand that some of the best drivers slip through the cracks? The whole point of my post back there about Button is that drivers with enormous talent sometimes hit a brick wall with their careers through lack of opportunity, or get stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time (Or the right place, but the wrong time). That never happened to Lewis. That's unbelievably rare. So he was lucky. How can you not get that the fact he was lucky does not mean he's not one of the best? How is it that despite the fact I've already explained that the fact he was lucky takes nothing away from his skill (Because he made absolutely the best of all the opportunities he was presented with), but saying the opposite is supremely insulting to those who didn't get those chances to shine you can continue to stubbornly protest that Lewis was simply intangibly better the whole time? It's preposterous and mean-spirited - and I'd bet he would call BS on it.

This is the exact same problem I had with that guy earlier. Luck and skill are not mutually exclusive, and you get nowhere with only one of them. You have to have both, simultaneously, to be a success. If ability alone were enough, more poor kids would get great results in school. If luck alone were enough, bozos like Crashajima would be champions. Lewis is currently the outright fastest F1 driver, and he was phenomenally talented his whole career. He was also lucky. He met Ron, Ron responded well, he got decent drives in the higher categories. So he made it here to show us how fast he was.

Two comparisons. Crashajima. No apparent F1 talent. Made it here because of luck - Toyota magic-carpeted him in. He went nowhere because he had the luck and not enough talent to make use of it.

Button. Brilliant driver. Made his own way through the lower categories with smaller teams, nearly fell off the ladder when the money ran out. Made it into F1 thanks to a seemingly lucky break, but it was a bit too soon. From then on, got held back by bad timing and not a lot of luck (Even in 2004, bad luck cost him at least 1 win). Finally the good luck came back into full force when he was Honda's man, which made him Brawn's man. Now he's the champion because skill & luck combined.

Lewis. Brilliant driver. He and his dad got help from Ron Dennis & the McLaren Driver Development Programme. Went through the lower categories with good teams, made best use of them, putting his huge talent on show. Entered F1 when he was ready, straight into a top team. He won the title the very next year.

You mentioned that Rosberg fell out of the same programme. Yeah, he did. He was a bit like Nakajima - all the luck, not enough talent. Lewis is far and away a better driver. But that luck still got Nico into F1. What happened for him? Not a lot compared to Lewis or (Later in the career) Jenson. More than Nakajima though, because Rosberg is far and away better at F1 than Kazuki.

It takes talent and luck combined to make it to the top, as these examples make clear.

Really! i think you need to check your history on some F1 drivers.

Lewis didn't just appear in a F1 car for McLaren over night,he earned that place through winning titles and determination.If you want to talk spoon fed then Jenson Button had more of a head start than Lewis with his dad being in motor sport in the 70s. As matter of fact John Button was well know in the moto sport circle having been a rally driver himself,he opened doors for Jenson. The only thing Lewis done was approach Ron Dennis and say to him "I want to race for you one day...I want to race for McLaren." this was after he had won the British Championship.

Before Lewis stepped into a McLaren car he had already won Formula Renault championships-Formula Three EuroSeries-GP2 Series. He also raced Karts for Formula A with his team mate being Nico Rosberg,lol if anyone was spoon fed and had a head starts, then it's Nico.

Every single driver in F1 has experience some luck don't make it a major issue with Lewis when their are other like your Hero Jenson who have had massive heads starts. Another thing you need to stop making out is JB has always had bad cars,well that's not true is it,remember Williams?

Jenson problem was he though he had made it and decided to act out his playboy fantasy,that was his problem,yes he had a bad time at Honda but that was not always the case.

You are getting mixed up with networking/marketing and luck

That's not luck it's brilliant marketing from his dad.

If anything it's Alonso that has a similar experience coming from a poor family and his old man working hard to realise his dreams and his sons.

If you are going to tell it at least do your homework.

Every single driver on the grid has had luck, don't make it an issue with Lewis because you don't like him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Hamilton

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenson_Button

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_alonso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosberg

Oh, and JB will get his bottom handed to him by Lweis.

Shall i continue.....

[7UpJordan]

Button will win...

[vaptin]

Ineluke - I think you've missed the point.

The original premise was along the lines of ratings for Lewis against Jenson tend to be biased, as Lewis was thrown into a competitive car straight away. Yes Lewis had to work extremely hard to maximise his luck and opportunities. But sometimes bad luck can just let you down - even if your extremely talented. Lewis's very strong results of course added weight when he went to speak to Ron Dennis - but what if Lewis had never crossed paths with Ron? Like jensonb was saying - sometimes it comes down to right place right time, through proper planning and preparation its more likely you'll be in the right place at the right time but they'll be an element of luck involved. you have to factor in luck, and cannot just simply say - Lewis started of in a competitive car and Jenson diddn't purely becuase he was a better driver.

[racechick]

Ineluke - I think you've missed the point.

The original premise was along the lines of ratings for Lewis against Jenson tend to be biased, as Lewis was thrown into a competitive car straight away. Yes Lewis had to work extremely hard to maximise his luck and opportunities. But sometimes bad luck can just let you down - even if your extremely talented. Lewis's very strong results of course added weight when he went to speak to Ron Dennis - but what if Lewis had never crossed paths with Ron? Like jensonb was saying - sometimes it comes down to right place right time, through proper planning and preparation its more likely you'll be in the right place at the right time but they'll be an element of luck involved. you have to factor in luck, and cannot just simply say - Lewis started of in a competitive car and Jenson diddn't purely becuase he was a better driver.

It was winning kart racers to get to the awards where Ron Dennis was attending (that bit was talent)
Then good management by Anthony. He sent lewis to speak to Ron Dennis- it was planned and calculated, there was no luck involved in that encounter.

[vaptin]

Ineluke - I think you've missed the point.

The original premise was along the lines of ratings for Lewis against Jenson tend to be biased, as Lewis was thrown into a competitive car straight away. Yes Lewis had to work extremely hard to maximise his luck and opportunities. But sometimes bad luck can just let you down - even if your extremely talented. Lewis's very strong results of course added weight when he went to speak to Ron Dennis - but what if Lewis had never crossed paths with Ron? Like jensonb was saying - sometimes it comes down to right place right time, through proper planning and preparation its more likely you'll be in the right place at the right time but they'll be an element of luck involved. you have to factor in luck, and cannot just simply say - Lewis started of in a competitive car and Jenson diddn't purely becuase he was a better driver.

It was winning kart racers to get to the awards where Ron Dennis was attending (that bit was talent)
Then good management by Anthony. He sent lewis to speak to Ron Dennis- it was planned and calculated, there was no luck involved in that encounter.

There's always going to be some luck involved, but lewis did very well in maximising his chances. The point is you can't compare Lewis's and Button's careers without factoring in their different circumstances which weren't just down to more ability on Lewis's part.

[Jensonb]

Lewis didn't just appear in a F1 car for McLaren over night,he earned that place through winning titles and determination.If you want to talk spoon fed then Jenson Button had more of a head start than Lewis with his dad being in motor sport in the 70s. As matter of fact John Button was well know in the moto sport circle having been a rally driver himself,he opened doors for Jenson. The only thing Lewis done was approach Ron Dennis and say to him "I want to race for you one day...I want to race for McLaren." this was after he had won the British Championship.

Before Lewis stepped into a McLaren car he had already won Formula Renault championships-Formula Three EuroSeries-GP2 Series. He also raced Karts for Formula A with his team mate being Nico Rosberg,lol if anyone was spoon fed and had a head starts, then it's Nico.

Every single driver in F1 has experience some luck don't make it a major issue with Lewis when their are other like your Hero Jenson who have had massive heads starts. Another thing you need to stop making out is JB has always had bad cars,well that's not true is it,remember Williams?

Jenson problem was he though he had made it and decided to act out his playboy fantasy,that was his problem,yes he had a bad time at Honda but that was not always the case.

You are getting mixed up with networking/marketing and luck

That's not luck it's brilliant marketing from his dad.

If anything it's Alonso that has a similar experience coming from a poor family and his old man working hard to realise his dreams and his sons.

If you are going to tell it at least do your homework.

Every single driver on the grid has had luck, don't make it an issue with Lewis because you don't like him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Hamilton

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenson_Button

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_alonso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosberg

Oh, and JB will get his bottom handed to him by Lweis.

Shall i continue.....

You can't read, can you?

John Button raced in rally cross. Jenson raced single seaters - and history shows Jenson didn't get any doors opened for him by his father. You're asserting it, but it didn't happen. Lewis meanwhile was lucky enough to be able to ask Ron Dennis for help. Ron took a look, liked what he saw, and gave Lewis the help he needed to make best use of his considerable talent.

I never said Lewis was immediately whisked into F1 without doing anything. I said the opposite. Don't sit there and tell me to check my history when you evidently know jack and squat about Jenson's (And Jack just left town) and you're not even bothering to read the points you claim to be responding to.

Next, I'M NOT TAKING ISSUE WITH LEWIS. How do you not get this? I've reiterated TIME AND TIME AGAIN: Every driver needs luck AND talent. I even said the same of Jenson. Are you being stupid on purpose? NOBODY HERE IS INSULTING LEWIS. On several occasions I called him enormously talented, and at least once the fastest driver in F1.

You clearly don't know a damn thing about the last ten years of F1, because if you did, you'd know the Williams was decent in 2000, but not a race winner. You also clearly aren't reading what I'm saying because: I specifically mentioned that the Williams was a decent car. Also, this crap about the playboy fantasy, first: every driver does that. Look at Nico's website, look at Lewis's girlfriend, look at Kimi's whole life. They're young and rich, they like to have their fun (And given the danger of what they're doing we should cut them some slack. Also, James Hunt was always like that and nobody ever gives him s**t for it). Second: I specifically mentioned that Jenson entered F1 too early and lacked maturity at the time - I even called out the media for claiming at the time he was "enormously mature".

FINALLY, your utterly dunder-headed conclusion is that "every driver on the grid has luck" and that I'm "[taking] issue with Lewis because I don't like him". READ BEFORE POSTING. Every driver on the gird has luck was the the very freaking point I was making. I mean SERIOUSLY. What is the matter with you? It's like you want to look stupid. Furthermore I don't dislike Lewis. I couldn't stand him in 2007/8 when he was arrogant and overexposed, but he's matured and cleaned up his racing since then so I don't have a problem with him any more.

For the love of god Ineluke. Lewis is the fastest driver on the grid and a Champion. He does not need you leaping to defend him from every imagined slight against him you think you read. Next time you decide to lecture people about "doing their homework", make sure you've actually done yours and you read the content to which you are responding.