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By bud
#94695
A glider has potential energy from being at a higher position than it's destination.... but somebody had to spend energy to bring it up there. A glider will never end up higher than from where it initially set off from.


thats not true, have you seen hang gliders?
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By stonemonkey
#94712
A glider has potential energy from being at a higher position than it's destination.... but somebody had to spend energy to bring it up there. A glider will never end up higher than from where it initially set off from.


thats not true, have you seen hang gliders?

Ah, nicely pointed out bud. If you ignore the use of thermals a glider can go higher then it's release point or in the case of a hang glider the point where the pilots feet leave the ground. While I was considering it to be comparable to a rollercoaster there is one differencee, a glider or hang glider will usually be launched/released at a speed greater than it's stall speed, that additional kinetic energy can be used up to get higher and gain potential energy until the vehicle is going so slow it stalls.
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By f1ea
#94740
Yes, the glider setting off at a 'launch' speed is somehow equivalent to having it launched from a higher position at no speed. And again, something must spend energy to give it such launch speed...

i bet F1 engineers go with energy as well, because Drag F and Temperature change is signifficant. Also, with their super computers they can split that time interval into tiny dt's, and their extensive wind tunnel work gives them the drag coefficients of the car over a nice range of velocities.

So, they can go deeper into F = m * a to SUM (F) = m * a. Something like:

SUM (F) = Engine torque - f (drag coeff * V^2) - f * dTemperature

And because most dT happens at the engine and tires... having a low drag coeff, a good cooling system and non overheating tires are extremely important to maximize Thrust.

We could go on forever really...
By mikeA
#129640
I would appreciate input on following. Have bradham formula Atlantic rolling chassis. Installing two turbonique T-32 liquid thrust engines. Used scales at each wheel to determine gross weight with driver at about 900#s. Total thrust is 1000 #s. what would be the expected outcome in speed, acceleration, time and distance from a standing start for 4 second, 6 second, 8 second, and 10 second burns at full 1000 # thrust? Also what formula is used to determine results so that I could understand and use basic formula myself. Approximates are good enough vs exact calculations.
THX, MIKE
By Gaz
#135400
I would appreciate input on following. Have bradham formula Atlantic rolling chassis. Installing two turbonique T-32 liquid thrust engines. Used scales at each wheel to determine gross weight with driver at about 900#s. Total thrust is 1000 #s. what would be the expected outcome in speed, acceleration, time and distance from a standing start for 4 second, 6 second, 8 second, and 10 second burns at full 1000 # thrust? Also what formula is used to determine results so that I could understand and use basic formula myself. Approximates are good enough vs exact calculations.
THX, MIKE


Cheese -10
User avatar
By sbhall
#145360
Thrust is a mechanical force which is generated through the reaction of accelerating a mass of gas, as explained by Newton's third law of motion. A gas or working fluid is accelerated to the rear and the engine and *insert mechanical device here* are accelerated in the opposite direction.

From Newton's second law of motion, we can define a force F to be the change in momentum of an object with a change in time. Momentum is the object's mass m times the velocity V. So, between two times t1 and t2, the force is given by:

F = ((m * V)2 - (m * V)1) / (t2 - t1)

If we are dealing with a solid, keeping track of the mass is relatively easy; the molecules of a solid are closely bound to each other and a solid retains its shape. But if we are dealing with a fluid (liquid or gas) and particularly if we are dealing with a moving fluid, keeping track of the mass gets tricky. For a moving fluid, the important parameter is the mass flow rate. Mass flow rate is the amount of mass moving through a given plane over some amount of time. Its dimensions are mass/time (kg/sec, slug/sec, ...) and it is equal to the density r times the velocity V times the area A. Aerodynamicists denote this parameter as m dot (m with a little dot over the top).

m dot = r * V * A

*The "dot" notation is used a lot by mathematicians, scientists, and engineers as a symbol for "d/dt", which means the variable changes with a change in time. For example, we can write Newton's second law as either

F = d(mv)/dt or F = (mv)dot

So "m dot" is not simply the mass of the fluid, but is the mass flow rate, the mass per unit time.*

Since the mass flow rate already contains the time dependence (mass/time), we can express the change in momentum across the propulsion device as the change in the mass flow rate times the velocity. We will denote the exit of the device as station "e" and the free stream as station "0". Then

F = (m dot * V)e - (m dot * V)0

A units check shows that on the right hand side of the equation:

mass/time * length/time = mass * length / time^2

This is the dimension of a force. There is an additional effect which we must account for if the exit pressure p is different from the free stream pressure. The fluid pressure is related to the momentum of the gas molecules and acts perpendicular to any boundary which we impose. If there is a net change of pressure in the flow there is an additional change in momentum. Across the exit area we may encounter an additional force term equal to the exit area Ae times the exit pressure minus the free stream pressure. The general thrust equation is then given by:

F = (m dot * V)e - (m dot * V)0 + (pe - p0) * Ae

Normally, the magnitude of the pressure-area term is small relative to the m dot-V terms.

there are two possible ways to produce high thrust. One way is to make the engine flow rate (m dot) as high as possible. As long as the exit velocity is greater than the free stream, entrance velocity, a high engine flow will produce high thrust. A large amount of air is processed each second, but the velocity is not changed very much. The other way to produce high thrust is to make the exit velocity very much greater than the incoming velocity. A moderate amount of flow is accelerated to a high velocity in these engines.

Cars can produce thrust, F1 cars do not.
By autogyro
#160208
Simple answer is no.
Turbo jet engines are measured in shaft horsepower, static thrust and dynamic thrust.
An F1 car/engine has no static thrust when stationary so no comparison can be made.
You must reframe the question.
User avatar
By stonemonkey
#199387
I don't get this, anyone who understands anything about physics should know this:

Thrust is the force acting between two masses accelerating them in opposite directions, it doesn't matter if they are solid, liquid or gas masses, throw a brick from a shopping trolly and you have thrust.

Place a car on a free floating object and hit the gas, the car accelerates in one direction and the free floating object accelerates in the opposite direction, just like trying to run forward when on a skateboard, you go one way and the skateboard goes the other, that IS thrust.

In the case of an F1 car the car is one mass and the planet is the other mass, because the planet os so massive the acceleration (A=F/M) is extremely small and not noticable but it's still thrust, like if the car was on a free floating object (well it is, just a very big free floating object).
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