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[texasmr2]

Mudslinging aside what are the opinion's of how the Ham will do in Canada? Oh almost fell off my soapbox and twisted my yankle so before the medic's arrive I'll just say that I think Lewis will have atleast one more WDC under his belt before going to NASCAR !

[darwin dali]

I think Lewis will have atleast one more WDC under his belt before going to NASCAR !

Gotta hurry then since he'll do just that on June 14 at the Glen.

[What's Burning?]

Mudslinging aside what are the opinion's of how the Ham will do in Canada? Oh almost fell off my soapbox and twisted my yankle so before the medic's arrive I'll just say that I think Lewis will have atleast one more WDC under his belt before going to NASCAR !

You brought a turd to a mudslingin fight' and there's a Canada thread for the answer to that question. RICE for your ankle.

[texasmr2]

Mudslinging aside what are the opinion's of how the Ham will do in Canada? Oh almost fell off my soapbox and twisted my yankle so before the medic's arrive I'll just say that I think Lewis will have atleast one more WDC under his belt before going to NASCAR !

You brought a turd to a mudslingin fight' and there's a Canada thread for the answer to that question. RICE for your ankle.

Good to see you have my back (I need all the help I can get ) but I see the knife in your hand so I like thin sliced and extra mayo . Just thought I would try to lighten the load with my Canada question so no posse ok?

[Hammer278]

I was just thinking...Lewis is the closest challenger to Seb, though this thread still managed to pop up.

So I'm guessing people like Alonso, Webber, Button are total no hopers, since even Lewis is doubtful to win another?

Assuming this is started by a RB fan, if he doesn't bother to acknowledge that RB is a superior car and has been a superior car the last 2 years we don't need to take car advantage into account, thus my input from this perspective.

[What's Burning?]

I was just thinking...Lewis is the closest challenger to Seb, though this thread still managed to pop up.

So I'm guessing people like Alonso, Webber, Button are total no hopers, since even Lewis is doubtful to win another?

Assuming this is started by a RB fan, if he doesn't bother to acknowledge that RB is a superior car and has been a superior car the last 2 years we don't need to take car advantage into account, thus my input from this perspective.

There's an old poll here somewhere about what % does the driver or the car make in establishing a WDC, maybe you can resurrect it. Now let's get this thread back to where it was for the first 4 or 5 pages worth of it.

bud has remained conspicuous in his absence and we must keep it going for RC to respond, and perhaps we can drag Spanky and AKR in for their opinions as well.

[nish2280]

In my opinion:
Is hamilton a good driver? Yes
Is he one of the top 5 on the grid? Yes
Is he the best driver to ever place his bottom in a F1 car as his fans believe? No

You have to first judge who's opinion you are considering when you ask the question. Are you asking an neutral fan who thinks he is a great driver or are you asking his fans who think he is the second best driver ever to walk this earth (sliced bread just doesnt cut it anymore).

[Ineluke]

I'm not saying that Hamilton is poor or good. Or am I saying he is both? Is that neutrality? DD help?

I also had a second motive in a running a social experiment like What's Burning stated. But that social experiment is to see if we can have a level-headed discussion with level-headed opinions like myownalias did.

But I'm imploring for you guys to convince me one way or the other.

It was like we saw Hamilton's split-personality in Monaco. I think I'm the only one on record here to say that he forced Massa into that mistake in the tunnel, by getting alongside him and then overtaking him. That is the best overtake I have seen in my life. But we also saw where it went horribly wrong. We can see that he is absolutely determined to win another title.

However, I used to rate him as the best driver there. That was last year in fact. But this year I've noticed that Button is also finishing strongly as well. While he isn't ballsy, he appears to have a level head. If Mclaren had the best car on the grid, and they were constantly locking out the front row, who would win? Button or Hamilton? I'm not sure anymore. I'm starting to appreciate Button's approach to racing, more than Hamilton's. Yet quite clearly hoping for the front two cars' wheels to fall off in Monaco is not a good approach. However, it is level-headed in that he would prefer to finish 2nd or 3rd than not at all.

Meanwhile, Alonso is quite clearly driving very well, to be in contention almost every race, and yet have a car that only appears to be good enough to languish around in the midfield.

Do you notice I'm always stating something good, and then have a "but" or a "however" to counteract that good with something the opposite? I can't form an opinion. I need your help!

Why does it need to be the best car on the grid for Button to beat Lewis,shouldn't he be doing that week in and week out if he is such a good driver? Button beat Lewis in Monaco through chance, not by out and out racing. Up until Q3 Lewis as usual was ahead of his team mate and IMO would of put the car on pole or come a very close second to Vettel. You can like Jenson driving style all you want but that does not win races,it's bottless and boring.

Simple Question is who out of the three you mention is second to Vettel,it's not Button and it's not Alonso,it's Lewis even after the bad weekend. As for Lewis becoming a crash bandit,well it was Vettel last year and Mark Webber so i guess each year someone has their turn. One race and Lewis has crashed twice and all of a sudden he is a crash bandit,lol wistful thinking on your part i would say.

Mark Brundle said it plain and clear..

"The earlier contact with Felipe Massa is less clear. Massa did turn into the hairpin very early but could well argue that he was aiming inside the wide Red Bull of Mark Webber who was on his nose. It's also arguable that Massa was too late in defending. Hamilton's move, although again he had been very close behind in the corner before, did unquestionably cause contact and damage, and Paul Di Resta had already received a penalty for a similar misdemeanour. I said in commentary before the incident that there must be a 75% chance of contact while passing into that hairpin, and I stand by that"




"Having seen further footage not available to me in commentary, I do think that Lewis was treated harshly in the incident involving Pastor Maldonado, although that penalty didn't affect his sixth place. He was all over the back of Maldonado's weaving Williams down the pit straight and he should not have been surprised to have Hamilton moving alongside him into the corner. He should have left more space or covered the inside better. I would not have penalised Lewis in this incident"

"Lewis Hamilton is the most aggressive and hardest charging driver on the grid today, just as his hero Ayrton Senna used to be. Unsurprisingly Lewis's style gets him in more trouble than most. Thinking back to Spa 2008, among other incidents, it is certainly possible to build a case that he is punished more than others"

"Champion drivers will always create and seize upon gaps and half chances that others don't, it's one of the factors which makes them special. But there has to be a gap to drive into"

[Ineluke]

In my opinion:
Is hamilton a good driver? Yes
Is he one of the top 5 on the grid? Yes
Is he the best driver to ever place his bottom in a F1 car as his fans believe? No

You have to first judge who's opinion you are considering when you ask the question. Are you asking an neutral fan who thinks he is a great driver or are you asking his fans who think he is the second best driver ever to walk this earth (sliced bread just doesnt cut it anymore).

Of course you can't think Lewis is the best driver ever place his bottom in a F1 car no more than you can say Alonso or Vettel , it's way to early.

The best Driver ever by statistics is 40+ years old and sitting in the Mercedes GP car.

Is Lewis a better driver than Vettel and Alonso,imo he is the better driver out of the three and the most exciting.

Lewis has been beating many on the F1 grid now long before he and they came to F1.

On Sebastian Vettel

In 2003, he upgraded to open-wheel cars, and won the 2004 German Formula BMW Championship with 18 victories from 20 races. In 2005 he drove for ASL Mucke Motorsport in the Formula Three Euroseries. He was placed fifth in the final standings with 64 points, winning the year's top rookie honours. He did not win any races, but this was largely due to the championship's domination by Lewis Hamilton. Despite this, he tested the Williams FW27 Formula One car on 27 September as a reward for this Formula BMW success. He then went on to test for the BMW Sauber team.

[nish2280]

In my opinion:
Is hamilton a good driver? Yes
Is he one of the top 5 on the grid? Yes
Is he the best driver to ever place his bottom in a F1 car as his fans believe? No

You have to first judge who's opinion you are considering when you ask the question. Are you asking an neutral fan who thinks he is a great driver or are you asking his fans who think he is the second best driver ever to walk this earth (sliced bread just doesnt cut it anymore).

Of course you can't think Lewis is the best driver ever place his bottom in a F1 car no more than you can say Alonso or Vettel , it's way to early.

The best Driver ever by statistics is 40+ years old and sitting in the Mercedes GP car.

Is Lewis a better driver than Vettel and Alonso,imo he is the better driver out of the three and the most exciting.

Lewis has been beating many on the F1 grid now long before he and they came to F1.

On Sebastian Vettel

In 2003, he upgraded to open-wheel cars, and won the 2004 German Formula BMW Championship with 18 victories from 20 races. In 2005 he drove for ASL Mucke Motorsport in the Formula Three Euroseries. He was placed fifth in the final standings with 64 points, winning the year's top rookie honours. He did not win any races, but this was largely due to the championship's domination by Lewis Hamilton. Despite this, he tested the Williams FW27 Formula One car on 27 September as a reward for this Formula BMW success. He then went on to test for the BMW Sauber team.

Kamui Kobayashi who is highly acclaimed on this forum was a very average driver in GP2 which is considered to be the entry series for F1 drivers but his performances in F1 have proven to be spectacular. Furthermore, though the performance gaps between teams in lower series are small, they do still exist. This could be the result of bad setups, bad team atmosphere etc... As a result it is quite hard to judge one's performance from lower formulas and use them as proof one's driving abilities.

What i was alluding to in my original post was that if you take the view of a die hard Lewis fan and ask the question, is LH overrated i would say yes.
If i asked a neutral fan the same question i would say he is not overrated. But i would say this applies for almost ever driver on the grid.

[f1boy]

This might be controversial, but I think Lewis is the fastest F1 driver in the world atm. Put him next to Seb at Red Bull and I think Hamilton would be quicker.

Anyway, McLaren need to get their act together in Canada, otherwise frustration levels will reach boiling point for him.

To sum up, give Lewis a Red Bull and he'd bury everyone IMO.

[texasmr2]

I had that same thought a few day's ago.

[vlad]

There are many who would disagree!

[What's Burning?]

Who are the DIE HARD Lewis fans on this forum? Let's name names? The only one I can think of is The Ram. But we've got AKR to balance him out on the Ferrari camp, and we've got Vlad to balance her out on the Red Bull camp Yet that doesn't preclude any of them from making contributions to this forum.

Yeah there's a half dozen posters that come here, 15 year old kids by their descriptions and they mention that Lewis is the greatest blah blah but why then go and make the generalization that all of the folks that like him are that way? Even if that was the case, why not just let someone mature as a fan of the sport? Why the hate? Why the disdain? What bothers me about the wide cast net by the "haters" is that there is no way you can be a fan of Lewis Hamilton because doing so obviously means you're not genuinely knowledgeable about the sport.... how could you be since you like Lewis Hamilton?!?! That is the steaming crock that's allowed to persists here unchallenged and you don't have to look beyond the title of this thread to get your proof, where the only person that's challenged Vettel this year in a less than capable car is being questioned for being over rated by his fans.

That's a crock point of view and we know who the "haters" and the "fanboys" are but naming names, and we know how annoying it can be to always be so hyper sensitive and feel the need to defend the slightest accusation or perceived attack by both extremes but I can say unequivocally that the overwhelming majority of the Lewis Hamilton fans here, congratulate, even cheer for other drivers when they've are had a great performance. They are not fixated on Lewis Hamilton the all mighty god as they're constantly being accused of, yet that type of behavior and accusation is exhibited by billindenver here ALWAYS and it must not go unchallenged. There is a reason he was the first one casting stones in an otherwise (amazingly) civil discussion. I have no issue with the various opinions here, this has been one of the most interesting threads in quite some time and shows that the discussion when allowed to remain about philosophy and opinions and views, free from the need to prove others wrong or start name calling, was an anthropological success and it shows that our membership can dig deep into a topic and not embarrass themselves.

These Lewis Hamilton fanboys are also the same ones calling Lewis a bonehead for some of his more memorable comments and some of his inexplicable moves, so it's not all praise being cast... read the posts here and there isn't one person that supports Lewis that hasn't also mentioned his negative aspects, so why the wide net? Why is it that there is an inability to live and let live, and just lets folks enjoy whomever they enjoy?

Maldonado winding up crashing was unfortunate and I was glad he'd had such a solid Monaco performance yet does anyone know what the comments by Maldonado were post race? NO, because nobody gives a squat about what he said, because he's not the one bringing millions of fans into the sport and he's not the one the umpteen cameras and media outlets run to interview post race.... so we wouldn't know unless we're following him specifically as his fans. So what is Lewis going to say after he had one of the worst days in his career? What's someone going to say after he's been given a penalty, after the frustrating race he just had, and is then penalized by race stewards for passing Maldonado even though Williams themselves say it was just an unfortunate racing incident? Not everyone is a smooth political post race commentator, We know what Kimi would have done so Is it a shock the guy said boneheaded things? It's not excusable, and there isn't a Lewis Hamilton fan here that has excused it yet that doesn't stop the accusations about all Lewis Hamilton fans being the same, and those accusations go unchallenged.

I am appreciative of everyone's genuine sentiment here and those that bothered to articulate their opinions and those that even bothered to back their opinions up with facts, pro or con. Leave things at that, and enjoy the discussion and don't get angry if the world doesn't happen to agree with your point of view.

You dislike Lewis Hamilton, that's perfectly understandable, but what's not understandable is this thread being derailed by someone going out of the way disliking in a generalized fashion Lewis Hamilton fans.

[f1boy]

Lewis spoke out on Sunday in the heat of the moment and the "is it cause I'm black" comment wasn't the smartest thing to say with a TV camera in your face, but I do think he would be quicker than Seb given like for like cars. In Canada he'll show the Red Bulls how it's done.

(I'm a grown up and a Lewis fan......there, I said it, lol.)