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[bud]

[bud]

The 2007 in my signature is perfectly legitimate, DeMuRe. For one, I didn't see Renault or Toyota being punished for their little ventures in the espionage world. Nor did Ferrari for sending out their spies with cameras.

I am sorry, but it isn't legit because McLaren didn't win in 2007. It is more like you are a sore loser and you cannot accept that Ferrari won in 2007 and have to be like a big (Actually I wont say it because I will just get in trouble). Either way no matter what you write on your signture it wont change the reality. If it is for a little protest again it wont change anything. And also a lot of people don't agree with you that McLaren should of really won. They did cheat after all. Weather you believe the punishment was too harsh or not it doesn't matter. Had McLaren not cheated in the first place then no punishment would of occurred. They did cheat however and what happened as a result was that they got kicked out of the constructors championship. Period. Ferrari won in 2007 and that his history. If McLaren are better now they will win it this year and if they do you can legitemetly put 2008 on your signiture. If they don't you can choose to accept it or you can choose not to and just put McLaren won on your signiture like with 2007. But in the end it matters not as it will not change reality and that is that FERRARI ARE THE CHAMPIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also there was no need to punish Toyota as their so called cheating didn't effect Ferrari's championship title hopes as Toyota were not going to ever win it, let alone win a race. So why waste time and money. The would of been the case with Renault. With McLaren it wasn't the case. McLaren cheated and potentially could of stolen the title from Ferrari by cheating. That is why everyone cared that McLaren cheated but not Toyota and Renault.

with or without Mike Coughlan and Stepneys wrong doings McLaren would have still been in the same position in 2007. for the evidence used to sanction McLaren had no influence on their performance what so ever.

and its funny how you can just push away the Toyota or Renault case you would think a governing body would react the same way for a breach of the same rules!

its like the FIA not caring if someone is killed by A but if B kills someone then they get angry. Its bullpoo no matter which way you look at it!

[AKR]

with or without Mike Coughlan and Stepneys wrong doings McLaren would have still been in the same position in 2007. for the evidence used to sanction McLaren had no influence on their performance what so ever.

and its funny how you can just push away the Toyota or Renault case you would think a governing body would react the same way for a breach of the same rules!

its like the FIA not caring if someone is killed by A but if B kills someone then they get angry. Its bullpoo no matter which way you look at it!

It isn't bullpoo Bud. You know very well how expensive and draining it is to take someone to court etc. And it is very hard when you need to also concentrate on winning let alone running an F1 team. To simply take Toyota to court would of been a waste of time for Ferrari. If Ferrari did that and Toyota got fined and/or disqualified, what would it have achieved? Nothing as Ferrari winning is concerned. But McLaren a major rival of Ferrari is different. McLaren stole the Ferrari data and used it. Using it gave them an advantage they didn't have before having this data. It gave McLaren level terms to Ferrari. It meant that Ferrari could of been robbed of a title that was theirs to win from the start. As a result of this, spending the effort and money to take McLaren to court was justified. Simple. If Ferrari didn't do this, McLaren would of won at least the Constructors title with the help of data stolen from Ferrari which wouldn't of been fair or right. Regarding Renault and McLaren. What could you really do? Neither team was going to win any titles. McLaren was already disqualified and Renault was way off the pace. 3rd I think they came? BMW-Sauber I remember came 2nd in 2007. Do you think it was really worth the effort to punish the 3rd place getting team. I don't think so. I would say had Renault won the title and cheated off McLaren then something would of had been done. In this case they didn't and no one really cared.

[Denthúl]

I think you're all forgetting that even if they hadn't been excluded from the WCC, they would have lost it to Ferrari anyway because of the penalty at Hungary.

Toyota and Renault should both have been excluded from the WCC also for the things that happened involving them, because they had and used (or in the case of Renault, attempted to use) the data. Yet, in the Renault case, the FIA decided not to pursue the matter further, which shows a lack of consistency. Remember that Renault have been a championship-winning team and could have implemented some of the data which they got their hands on in their 2008 car design, which would potentially have put them back in the fight for the championship.

[AKR]

I think you're all forgetting that even if they hadn't been excluded from the WCC, they would have lost it to Ferrari anyway because of the penalty at Hungary.

Toyota and Renault should both have been excluded from the WCC also for the things that happened involving them, because they had and used (or in the case of Renault, attempted to use) the data. Yet, in the Renault case, the FIA decided not to pursue the matter further, which shows a lack of consistency. Remember that Renault have been a championship-winning team and could have implemented some of the data which they got their hands on in their 2008 car design, which would potentially have put them back in the fight for the championship.

Had McLaren not been excluded, and the appeal for the penalty in Hungary were successful, then McLaren would of won the WCC title. If McLaren were not excluded they would of persued their appeal regarding the Hungarian GP. There is the possibilty that McLaren could of won that appeal.

[Kiwi_Chris]

It isn't bullpoo Bud. You know very well how expensive and draining it is to take someone to court etc. And it is very hard when you need to also concentrate on winning let alone running an F1 team. To simply take Toyota to court would of been a waste of time for Ferrari.

True Ferrari had no reason to bring a civil suite against anyone but Mclaren, Couglan and Stepney but the FIA should have come down on ANY team no matter where they lie in the championship as hard as another. The FIA and the WMSC should be their to impose the rules fairly across the board and no let teams off just because they didnt affect the outcome of the race.
Mclaren were found in the wrong and punished spo why should renult and/or Toyota get away with similer breaches of the sporting code?

[racechick]

British GP, 2007, Ron Dennis, I quote:

'I live and breathe this team. There is no way anything incorrect would ever happen in our team. My personal integrity is very important to me and my company's integrity is even more important to me. We are working closely with the FIA and closely with Ferrari. This matter does not involve our company.'

'I am absolutely confident that with the passing of time, the world will understand that McLaren's position is one that is reflective of our statements. We have never, to my knowledge, ever used other people's intellectual property. It is not on our car. I am sure the FIA will confirm.'

Those words came back to haunt Ron, in December he issued a grovelling apology which revealed the full extent of the Ferrari information infiltration. Not only on the car that won 8 races in 2007, but the MP-23, the car that was being constructed for 2008.

This is from a team that was noted for it's immaculate and unimpeachable image, it's integrity was ripped apart.

Either Dennis knew about it or it was a display of poor administrative control by Dennis, Whitmarsh and Neale. How could the right hand be so unaware of what the left hand was doing?

Most think the FIA's pummeling of McLaren was merciless, this apology showed the FIA were completely justified in their actions.

McLaren did once have a proud record in formula one however the spy scandal completely destroyed their reputation as a team and brought the entire sport into disrepute.

The fact you can still support Ron Dennis with such passion is beyond words, he is both deceptive and incompetent beyond all measure...

Ron Dennis was wrong, but not dishonest. It's not dishonest if you do not know, which he didn't. The McLaren Group is a big organisation with many different subgroups, of which McLaren Racing is only one. To handle such a company, responsibilities are devolved to certain groups and people throughout it. Similar things happen in other companies. If one of the foot soldiers are rogue, how the hell is the general going know? Put simply, he can't. Jonathan Neale, one of the sergeants, if you like, carrying on the military metaphor, thought he had the problem with Coughlan solved. He did not, however, for Coughlan went behind McLaren's back.

Perhaps you need reminded of the findings of the FIA's report on the spy scandal. As I've told you before, the FIA found there was no Ferrari intellectual data on the MP4-22, although two components possibly found their way onto the MP4-23. That doesn't seem to have permeated into your thick head as yet.

Never mind McLaren bringing Formula One into disrepute, the FIA do that themselves, with their cosy relations with Ferrari, bungling one rule change after another, allowing a Nazi for a President (who's breaking his own two-term limit legislation) to stay, their nefarious practices to ensure title battles go to the last race of the season, and completely screwing-up sorting out the spy scandal.

There is a problem with your statement in the first paragraph which as a consequence makes the rest just a HYPOTHESIS from a McLaren lamb of the highers order.

Ron Dennis was wrong, but not dishonest. It's not dishonest if you do not know, which he didn't.

Tell me how the hell you know that for fact ? Because Ron tells us so.

How gullible can you get. And your not Bias

Ron Dennis is a business man and will do whatever it takes to win, end of story.
Successful Business men are not known for there integrity.

Have a look at this snake in the grass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x9bjEo0DFE

McLaren fan is right. Ron Dennis is not dishonest. Yes he is a business man but will not compromise his integrity to succeed. Success means lass to him than how it is achieved.
Yes he is a control freak but that doesnt mean he knows what every individual employee is doing at every given moment, thats impossible. It was a couple of rougue employees, including FA, but lets not forget that it all started by Ferrari not knowing what ITs rogue employee was doing.

[racechick]

It isn't bullpoo Bud. You know very well how expensive and draining it is to take someone to court etc. And it is very hard when you need to also concentrate on winning let alone running an F1 team. To simply take Toyota to court would of been a waste of time for Ferrari.

True Ferrari had no reason to bring a civil suite against anyone but Mclaren, Couglan and Stepney but the FIA should have come down on ANY team no matter where they lie in the championship as hard as another. The FIA and the WMSC should be their to impose the rules fairly across the board and no let teams off just because they didnt affect the outcome of the race.
Mclaren were found in the wrong and punished spo why should renult and/or Toyota get away with similer breaches of the sporting code?

Why indeed!

[Mikep99]

McLaren fan is right. Ron Dennis is not dishonest. Yes he is a business man but will not compromise his integrity to succeed. Success means lass to him than how it is achieved.
Yes he is a control freak but that doesnt mean he knows what every individual employee is doing at every given moment, thats impossible. It was a couple of rougue employees, including FA, but lets not forget that it all started by Ferrari not knowing what ITs rogue employee was doing.

Gullible + 1
Clairvoyant + 1
Lamb + 1
Comedian + 1 (Couple of rougue employee)

[racechick]

McLaren fan is right. Ron Dennis is not dishonest. Yes he is a business man but will not compromise his integrity to succeed. Success means lass to him than how it is achieved.
Yes he is a control freak but that doesnt mean he knows what every individual employee is doing at every given moment, thats impossible. It was a couple of rougue employees, including FA, but lets not forget that it all started by Ferrari not knowing what ITs rogue employee was doing.

Gullible + 1
Clairvoyant + 1
Lamb + 1
Comedian + 1 (Couple of rougue employee)

Lamb -How do you work that out??

Clairvoyant???? -never claimed to read the future

Gullible?- maybe on some things but not this

Couple of rougue employees-Sorry I stand corrected there. Its 3 ,I forgot old pedro

Comedian- Yeah I'll take that one

[Mikep99]

McLaren fan is right. Ron Dennis is not dishonest. Yes he is a business man but will not compromise his integrity to succeed. Success means lass to him than how it is achieved.
Yes he is a control freak but that doesnt mean he knows what every individual employee is doing at every given moment, thats impossible. It was a couple of rougue employees, including FA, but lets not forget that it all started by Ferrari not knowing what ITs rogue employee was doing.

Gullible + 1
Clairvoyant + 1
Lamb + 1
Comedian + 1 (Couple of rougue employee)

Lamb -How do you work that out??

Clairvoyant???? -never claimed to read the future

Gullible?- maybe on some things but not this

Couple of rougue employees-Sorry I stand corrected there. Its 3 ,I forgot old pedro

Comedian- Yeah I'll take that one

Gullible = No especially in this case. "I believe because RON said so"
Lamb = honorary Lamb but fully fledged Hamophile.
Comedian = Yeh that was a good one, now pull the other one it plays jingle bells.
Clairvoyant = OK sorry wrong word.
Mind reader + 1 (Do you also know what I am thinking ?)

Look into my eye's

[KyrosV]

oh my god you guys still arguing..

ok ok..

let the Mclaren Bum boys have there dreams that There Holy team are never wrong and never cheated since the formation of the team, like that secret illegal pedal they had years ago that *woops* slipped there mind to tell anyone. and the whole 2007 thing. I used to think Ferrari were bad but mclaren are obviosly in a different league

but ive already apolagised so im not stirring up anymore

[Denthúl]

:rofl: oh my god you guys still arguing..

ok ok..

let the Mclaren Bum boys have there dreams that There Holy team are never wrong and never cheated since the formation of the team, like that secret illegal pedal they had years ago that *woops* slipped there mind to tell anyone. and the whole 2007 thing. I used to think Ferrari were bad but mclaren are obviosly in a different league

but ive already apolagised so im not stirring up anymore

The pedal was completely legal and they weren't the only team to use it.

[bud]

It isn't bullpoo Bud. You know very well how expensive and draining it is to take someone to court etc. And it is very hard when you need to also concentrate on winning let alone running an F1 team. To simply take Toyota to court would of been a waste of time for Ferrari.

True Ferrari had no reason to bring a civil suite against anyone but Mclaren, Couglan and Stepney but the FIA should have come down on ANY team no matter where they lie in the championship as hard as another. The FIA and the WMSC should be their to impose the rules fairly across the board and no let teams off just because they didnt affect the outcome of the race.
Mclaren were found in the wrong and punished spo why should renult and/or Toyota get away with similer breaches of the sporting code?

well said Kiwi

[racechick]

McLaren fan is right. Ron Dennis is not dishonest. Yes he is a business man but will not compromise his integrity to succeed. Success means lass to him than how it is achieved.
Yes he is a control freak but that doesnt mean he knows what every individual employee is doing at every given moment, thats impossible. It was a couple of rougue employees, including FA, but lets not forget that it all started by Ferrari not knowing what ITs rogue employee was doing.

Gullible + 1
Clairvoyant + 1
Lamb + 1
Comedian + 1 (Couple of rougue employee)

Lamb -How do you work that out??

Clairvoyant???? -never claimed to read the future

Gullible?- maybe on some things but not this

Couple of rougue employees-Sorry I stand corrected there. Its 3 ,I forgot old pedro

Comedian- Yeah I'll take that one

Gullible = No especially in this case. "I believe because RON said so"
Lamb = honorary Lamb but fully fledged Hamophile.
Comedian = Yeh that was a good one, now pull the other one it plays jingle bells.
Clairvoyant = OK sorry wrong word.
Mind reader + 1 (Do you also know what I am thinking ?)

Look into my eye's

Mind reader- I could probably make a pretty good guess what you're thinking most of the time
Lamb- no way honorary or otherwise
hamophile-Yes you got that one right
Gullible-as I said probably, sometimes but not in this case. I have inside information