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[CookinFlat6]

says Renault has the capacity to completely revamp its engine for 2015 despite rules regarding what manufacturers can and cannot change for next year.

Engine development from season-to-season will be scaled down from 2015 onwards, with manufacturers allocated 32 tokens to decide what parts of the engine they wish to adjust and change for next year, a tally which will decrease until 2018. If all the tokens were spent it would allow manufacturers to change 48% of 45 different engine components for the new campaign.

When it was put to him that Renault could have an engine different "in every respect" in 2015, the manufacturer's head of track operations Taffin replied: "Yes, it could be. I'm not saying it's going to be, but it could be. The thing is you can go up to 50% of the tokens you are allotted, your amount of tokens is 60 [per season] so you can go up to 30. With 30 you can nearly change an [entire] engine if you look at all the components."

Taffin says Renault's philosophy with regards to the use of the tokens next yearwill be to hold nothing back.

"You always have people who say maybe we should wait for this, or this, or this. It's like when you go to a race and you start thinking about 'shall we go full power of full beans for this race'. Now is a good example, because the next race is Spa so maybe I should save [in Hungary]. Statistics show you have to take it full beans when you are on track, it's the same for developing - you take everything you can take because it will pay."

Despite the desire not to start 2015 on the back foot as it did this season, Taffin says plenty can be gained by working across multiple seasons instead of focusing solely on one.

"We are still focused on this year but 2015 has been going on for a while now. In complete fairness it's not like you work just on this or on this. Both are linked, anything you find on '15 you can bring in for '14 and visa versa. It's more a question of having deadlines for next year and decisions to make but we still keep running both programs at the same time."

"When you have something on your car you try to keep on progressing and developing it, while there are people still working in parallel who try to see if there is a solution being worked on somewhere else, or a completely different solution. If it's proved to be better at one point you stick on it. That is the situation we are in and what we will be in for three, four or five years until everything is frozen. That's why '14 and '15 are linked but also '16, because work on '16 has already started as well."

Case rested (big fonts for benefit of the DAF)

[What's Burning?]

CookinFlat6, he clearly asked for a link and you respond with the actual content. How is he ever going to find it if the cursor doesn't change to a little finger pointer thinngie when he hovers over the words in a different color? Can you please provide the actual link instead.

[CookinFlat6]

Good point WB, its that darned reading comprehension again, which makes it difficult to process

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/170647.html - thing is clicking the link and reading it seems to lead to memory loss by the next DAF mea culpa

heres a really long article, again I will highlight the tidbits for those who like to scan info before disregarding its content

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30039736

Mercedes say they and Renault agree that Formula 1 cannot afford an all-out engine development war.
Red Bull, who are Renault's works team, have threatened to tear up rules restricting engine development in 2016.
They say Mercedes are blocking plans to reduce limits on in-season development next year.
Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said: "No serious company would allow a complete lifting of restrictions. Renault and Mercedes have full alignment."
Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said at the Brazilian Grand Prix that F1 should consider dropping the turbo hybrid V6 power-units that were introduced this season and return to the naturally aspirated V8 engines with which Red Bull won their four consecutive world titles from 2010-13.

He added: "Renault was very vocal in introducing these engines as a condition to stay in F1 and this is where we are today. All the other things being discussed are just funny."

Mercedes have agreed to allow the use of five tokens in a July update, but Red Bull and Ferrari are pushing for 13.
Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff says the team have already made a compromise on engine development
At the root of Horner's threat to abandon any restrictions for 2016 is that any change in the rules for 2015 requires unanimous agreement, but a change for 2016 can be passed on a simple majority.

Wolff said he did not agree to any more development than is currently allowed in the rules because it would "increase the costs massively, but because we don't want to feel like hardliners, we have offered a compromise, even though I still don't believe this is the right thing to do".
"We embrace competition and innovation but we are looking at the bigger picture of sustainability of the whole sport.
"Let's be sensible; what we need now is stability not controversy."
The smaller teams are struggling financially and have cited the costs of the turbo hybrid engines as one of the factors driving their problems.
Critics of the new engines say costs of gone up by two or three times from 2013 to 2014, but Wolff said that was inaccurate.
He said the cost of a Mercedes engine had increased only 20% from year to year, if the hybrid part of both engines was included in the price.
Wolff said: "We will certainly be very vocal if it's going to ever come down to a situation that somebody would opt for gloves off in 2016 - full steam ahead into an engine war.
"It's very clear how irresponsible that would be for the sport in an environment where we have just lost two teams, where we are talking about financial hardship for some of the other teams, that somebody wants to go gloves off."

Somebody that is not Renault and somebody who makes drinks that taste like piss, and somebody whose drinks and every single word is eagerly 'I can typing' by the DAF

[CookinFlat6]

Well well, from the horses mouth no talk of unfairness or stiffling, or unsporting. No talk about not being allowed to catch up, an admittance that there can only be one winner - the one who is best. Not a peep about needing unlimited development to allow a catch-up. Not a peep about broken rules, not a peep about not allowed to develop or catchup
I wonder where all the previous passion that excited the DAF has gone?? oh maybe it was just tactical and designed to excite??? Good thing is this quote is only 3 sentences, there can be no excuse to not read and understand it and then draw a line under this sheep like bleating we have been subjected to

Horner is confident the French manufacturer should narrow that gap and give the team more chances to go head-to-head with the sport’s new frontrunners.

“The prospects are looking good. Renault are obviously working incredibly hard in the window of opportunity that we’ve got and I think we can close that gap,” he added.

“Mercedes have done a wonderful job this year, they’ve stolen a march on everyone and it’s down to us to catch up. But we’re working hard with the guys from Renault, we’re trying to close that gap, and hopefully we can give them a harder time next season.”

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/9597786/red-bull-chief-christian-horner-confident-deposed-champions-will-enjoy-stronger-2015

[overboost]

says Renault has the capacity tocompletely revamp its engine for 2015 despite rules regarding what manufacturers can and cannot ............... That's why '14 and '15 are linked but also '16, because work on '16 has already started as well."

Case rested (big fonts for benefit of the DAF)

Really cookin I have come to the realization that you do not have a grasp on what you think you are discussing or even what your basic position is within that discussion.

What you have posted and carefully highlighted in red runs against your arguments and actually supports mine. Not only does this not say that Renault may have unspent tokens but it says that for next season Renault are going all out to develop a 2015 engine and might in fact end up with a completely different design! They are keeping their info close to their chest but that is to be expected.

Also your focus is wrong, the discussion has been around unfreezing in-season engine updates and not the once a year lottery that you seem to be mindlessly drawn to like a moth to a light. In the articles I see Renault is saying that they working to perhaps completely revamp their engine for 2015 using the tokens available and were asking for even more tokens (13) to be used during the season for a mid 2015 "B" spec unit. Mercedes quickly squashed this after originally agreeing. In this environment Renault adds that they can only achieve so much in one year and is saying it could take multiple years to get it done under the current rules.

Renault and Ferrari have a long way to go in developing their engines and they want to get on with it. They want to be competitive and the fans, sponsors, promoters, remaining teams etc. all want competition. Mercedes is blocking the way to a quick return to parity.

Then Wolfe ends with a 'threat' if they don't get their way in 2016, he is going to get very vocal! The other teams must be shaking in their racing shoes!

Wolfe: "We will certainly be very vocal if it's going to ever come down to a situation that somebody would opt for gloves off in 2016"

Sounds to me like Wolfe is the one who is worried.

If you have something else that you think supports your 'slant' please lets have a look.

ps. By the way so far your DAFness is beyond belief.

[CookinFlat6]

[racechick]

This is an old article , from July, and I'm sure it's been posted before. It's Joe Saward explaining really clearly how the token system works.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -of-today/

And This is the one where Renault are saying they can change just about all their engine for 2015.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/170647.html

And this one States that because they are behind, Ferrari and Renault look likely not to use the tokens available to them

http://www.grandprix247.com/2014/12/02/ ... dominance/

[CookinFlat6]

You may be confusing the DAF RC with several links at once, After all TOTO IS SCARED OF RENAULT AND FERRARI

[overboost]

This is an old article , from July, and I'm sure it's been posted before. It's Joe Saward explaining really clearly how the token system works.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -of-today/

And This is the one where Renault are saying they can change just about all their engine for 2015.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/170647.html

And this one States that because they are behind, Ferrari and Renault look likely not to use the tokens available to them

http://www.grandprix247.com/2014/12/02/ ... dominance/

Thanks for posting these links racechick.

The gp247 story takes a similar line as cooking and it is probably his main 'source' but there is no substance to the article, it is just conjecture.

[racechick]

I think Cookie said he got his information from an article on the Judge's site, correct me if I'm wrong Cookie.
And that's here
http://thejudge13.com/2014/12/02/f1-dai ... mber-2014/
You are right Overboost when you say it's conjecture. The Judge is careful to use words like "allegedly", I doubt Ferrari or Renault would openly advertise they are behind with what they're actually allowed to do.
The Judge's source is 'Auto Motor und Sport'.
Interestingly his site also carries a poll as to where there he engines should be unfrozen or not. It's running 48% NO, 41% YES and the rest ambivalent.

The following link is an interesting article ( but quite a long one) if you want to hear what teams are saying and get a bit of background. It's taken from around the Singapore GP time. I'm only going to post one quote, as Im sure you will all find plenty of quotes that interest you whichever side of the fence you sit regarding this debate. This quote isfrom Manfredi Ravetto of Caterham........
.."I remember when we were using 60/70 engines per year instead of what we have now, and the bill was similar"

can you imagine the bill for 60 or 70engines a year under todays costs!

http://wap.hupu.com/bbs/10509973.html

[myownalias]

Interestingly his site also carries a poll as to where there he engines should be unfrozen or not. It's running 48% NO, 41% YES and the rest ambivalent.

I always take polls with a pinch of salt, a good example would this; Who is the better driver, Lewis or Fernando?

If this was posted on a British media source; the overwhelming response would be Lewis; now run the same poll on an Spanish media source, it would be Fernando.

So many polls end up being split down party lines, LH/Merc fans will vote to keep the freeze as it helps maintain their advantage.

[racechick]

Of course. It was just of interest as our own polls are.

[sagi58]

Interestingly his site also carries a poll as to where there he engines should be unfrozen or not. It's running 48% NO, 41% YES and the rest ambivalent.

I always take polls with a pinch of salt, a good example would this; Who is the better driver, Lewis or Fernando?

If this was posted on a British media source; the overwhelming response would be Lewis; now run the same poll on an Spanish media source, it would be Fernando.

So many polls end up being split down party lines, LH/Merc fans will vote to keep the freeze as it helps maintain their advantage.

EXACTLY!! And, that's why I keep repeating that statistics can/are be manipulated!!

[myownalias]

Interestingly his site also carries a poll as to where there he engines should be unfrozen or not. It's running 48% NO, 41% YES and the rest ambivalent.

I always take polls with a pinch of salt, a good example would this; Who is the better driver, Lewis or Fernando?

If this was posted on a British media source; the overwhelming response would be Lewis; now run the same poll on an Spanish media source, it would be Fernando.

So many polls end up being split down party lines, LH/Merc fans will vote to keep the freeze as it helps maintain their advantage.

EXACTLY!! And, that's why I keep repeating that statistics can/are be manipulated!!

Polls and statistics are two different things; a statistic is a point of reference based upon results, a poll is simply a statement of opinion, the only stat we can derive from a poll is that x people voted for this, it means very little unless you poll everyone in the region. Not to say statistics can not be manipulated, we just have to look at our political systems to realize that, stats can be interpreted differently to show a very different view, but raw stats, e.g. actual numbers tell the real story.

[sagi58]

...that's why I keep repeating that statistics can/are be manipulated!!

Polls and statistics are two different things; a statistic is a point of reference based upon results, a poll is simply a statement of opinion, the only stat we can derive from a poll is that x people voted for this, it means very little unless you poll everyone in the region. Not to say statistics can not be manipulated, we just have to look at our political systems to realize that, stats can be interpreted differently to show a very different view, but raw stats, e.g. actual numbers tell the real story.

Agreed!! Just wanted to offer two more pieces to complete the puzzle:

1. Many people use the two terms interchangeably to emphasize the "truth" of their comments/statements.

2. The raw statistics are rarely seen by anyone, save those who have commissioned the research.