FORUMula1.com

[LRW]

[What's Burning?]

They realized that to make more power they needed more fuel. In and of itself it's a fundamental mistake. It's why Ricciardo god disqualified in the first place. For Renault and Ferrari to catch up, we're looking at 2017. Thankfully Honda doesn't have their head up their @55 and will bring a PU that is better than both Renault and Ferrari.

It's going to be nice to see a Mercedes, Williams, McLaren all out scrap in the next couple of season.

From the moment the engines were homologated back in February this year, the teams have ben free to work on the engine redesign for 2015.

That's statement according to Sagi is blatantly false, but Schumacher has been secretly testing engine bits for Mercedes this year, that's why no one has seen him, it's all a ruse you see.

It's my opinion and I'm sticking with it, you can't bully me into accepting your views.

[Hammer278]

They realized that to make more power they needed more fuel. In and of itself it's a fundamental mistake. It's why Ricciardo god disqualified in the first place. For Renault and Ferrari to catch up, we're looking at 2017. Thankfully Honda doesn't have their head up their @55 and will bring a PU that is better than both Renault and Ferrari.

It's going to be nice to see a Mercedes, Williams, McLaren all out scrap in the next couple of season.

From the moment the engines were homologated back in February this year, the teams have ben free to work on the engine redesign for 2015.

That's statement according to Sagi is blatantly false, but Schumacher has been secretly testing engine bits for Mercedes this year, that's why no one has seen him, it's all a ruse you see.

It's my opinion and I'm sticking with it, you can't bully me into accepting your views.

Ok the boy done good in 2014 but maybe you're overstepping it a bit here.

[What's Burning?]

fight fire with fire, and lunacy with outright insanity.

[CookinFlat6]

If Honda bring a good cheap engine, problem solved, in 2016 we will have cheap and competitive engines for everyone. RedBull and Ferrari can stick to their own engines without worrying about customers - everyones happy

Its really shocking though that the 2 loser engine makers are not even able to develop to the extent allowed in the rules yet they are giving their fans false hope by pretending they are been held back.

I wonder what those fans who claimed Merc were stopping the others or were scared of them catching up think of this new development. I doubt OB will be able to look back at all his posts and review them in the light of this evidence, not if he didnt understand the issue in the first place.

Even if there had been no freeze they would still not know which way to go - all they want to do is start again and copy Merc

[CookinFlat6]

More astonishing details from the german interview

The struggling marques pushed hard for the current development 'freeze' regulations to be relaxed ahead of 2015.

But Andy Cowell, the engine boss at Mercedes, insists there is no good reason for the German carmaker's rivals to be complaining about the current rules.

"The situation is clear," he is quoted by Spain's El Mundo Deportivo.

"You can develop the engine all year long and then race your great evolution at the beginning of next season.

"There is a very long list of development opportunities for our opponents to take a big step forward," he added.

Too late

But according to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport, Renault and Ferrari are now running out of time to prepare meaningful upgrades to their 'power units' before 2015.

The report said neither engine maker even looks set to use all the available 'tokens' of allowed performance upgrades by the end-of-February freeze deadline.

"They started to develop their 2015 engines too late," said Auto Motor und Sport.

A baffled Mercedes team chairman Niki Lauda said: "Why didn't they start already in Melbourne, when they knew how far behind they were?"

Mercedes-like engines

The report said Renault, for instance - although now enjoying the input of engine guru Mario Illien - has run out of time to mimic Mercedes' components layout.

We know we cannot reach Mercedes' level, but we want to be closer.

Christian Horner

Auto Motor und Sport said Ferrari, on the other hand, will enter the 2015 season with a more Mercedes-like layout.

But the boss of Renault's works team Red Bull, Christian Horner, sounds defeated already.

"We expect a slight increase in performance," he is quoted by El Confidencial. "We know we cannot reach Mercedes' level, but we want to be closer."

New era would not be easy

Ferrari is also expecting 2015 to be another struggle.

Reports suggest Mercedes' engine chief Cowell turned down an offer to switch to Maranello, while Ferrari's designer Nikolas Tombazis is understood to be close to the exit.

New Ferrari driver Sebastian Vettel described his first taste of a red cockpit as "magical" on Saturday, but others are more realistic.

"In the midst of all this euphoria," a Ferrari engineer told the insider Leo Turrini, "we should not forget to apologise in advance to Seb and Kimi for the car they will drive in 2015."

It has emerged that Kimi Raikkonen will have a new race engineer for 2015, but fellow Finnish champion Mika Hakkinen remains worried about his countryman.

"I watched Kimi in Abu Dhabi," Hakkinen said in his latest interview for sponsor Hermes, "and I could see that he had no pleasure of driving.

"One can only hope that Ferrari is preparing a much better car for Kimi. If Ferrari stays at this level, it will affect the motivation of both drivers," he added.

Who can feel any pity for the fans of Kimi, Seb, Ferrari and RBR for the 2015 misery they will have. It clear the gap will be larger than last year - neither have caught up to the 2014 Merc level and Merc 2015 level is a true magical eventuality. And if Honda slot in behind Merc its all over for 2016 as well

[overboost]

More astonishing details from the german interview

The struggling marques pushed hard for the current development 'freeze' regulations to be relaxed ahead of 2015.

But Andy Cowell, the engine boss at Mercedes, insists there is no good reason for the German carmaker's rivals to be complaining about the current rules.

"The situation is clear," he is quoted by Spain's El Mundo Deportivo.

"You can develop the engine all year long and then race your great evolution at the beginning of next season.

"There is a very long list of development opportunities for our opponents to take a big step forward," he added.

Too late

But according to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport, Renault and Ferrari are now running out of time to prepare meaningful upgrades to their 'power units' before 2015.

The report said neither engine maker even looks set to use all the available 'tokens' of allowed performance upgrades by the end-of-February freeze deadline.

"They started to develop their 2015 engines too late," said Auto Motor und Sport.

A baffled Mercedes team chairman Niki Lauda said: "Why didn't they start already in Melbourne, when they knew how far behind they were?"

Mercedes-like engines

The report said Renault, for instance - although now enjoying the input of engine guru Mario Illien - has run out of time to mimic Mercedes' components layout.

We know we cannot reach Mercedes' level, but we want to be closer.

Christian Horner

Auto Motor und Sport said Ferrari, on the other hand, will enter the 2015 season with a more Mercedes-like layout.

But the boss of Renault's works team Red Bull, Christian Horner, sounds defeated already.

"We expect a slight increase in performance," he is quoted by El Confidencial. "We know we cannot reach Mercedes' level, but we want to be closer."

New era would not be easy

Ferrari is also expecting 2015 to be another struggle.

Reports suggest Mercedes' engine chief Cowell turned down an offer to switch to Maranello, while Ferrari's designer Nikolas Tombazis is understood to be close to the exit.

New Ferrari driver Sebastian Vettel described his first taste of a red cockpit as "magical" on Saturday, but others are more realistic.

"In the midst of all this euphoria," a Ferrari engineer told the insider Leo Turrini, "we should not forget to apologise in advance to Seb and Kimi for the car they will drive in 2015."

Who can feel any pity for the fans of Kimi, Seb, Ferrari and RBR for the 2015 misery they will have. It clear the gap will be larger than last year - neither have caught up to the 2014 Merc level and Merc 2015 level is a true magical eventuality. And if Honda slot in behind Merc its all over for 2016 as well

I see Mercedes is spreading their propaganda trying to define the problem as some sort of advantage! Yes Merc we already know that engine development is a once a year lottery and one which is now rigged in favour of last season's engine design winner.

I do fear for Mercedes in stonewalling the other teams (after going back on their word!) in not allowing any flexibility in the rules for 2015 could backfire on the team. Obviously Mercedes is only in it for profit and sales, there is no sporting aspect to this corporation. The apparent lack of investment by Ferrari and Renault in developing the current V6 Turbos for the upcoming season to me could signal that they have made a strategic decision to suffer through a non competitive 2015 and come next November of next year they will by democratic vote move to redefine the engine rules for 2016.

Ferrari is also being very strategic in replacing their team boss with a backroom operator well versed in the political side of the F1 to ensure that they are successful in redefining the sport to their benefit. It has been obvious that the Germans have taken over this political aspect (as was strongly demonstrated by their control of the International Tribunal in last years Testing scandal) and Ferrari seem determined to make it right.

These broken FIA engine rules are one hot sticky mess for F1, alot of damage has been done and alot more may be done until this can be straightened out imo.

And please Ferrari and RedBull bring some 'magnificent noise' back to F1, we miss it!

[racechick]

You don't like the sound of the cars? I think that's been over hyped. I noticed it at first then it was forgotten. It's indignificant. I'm talking about at live races. On the TV They ( FOM I think) did something weird with the sound feed. I can't remember what but they didn't relay the sound properly. Speaking from having attended two live races I can say the sound was absolutely not the issue I thought it might be. And the quality of racing this year is far superior.

On Ferrari gettng back in bed with the FIA, I think it's a sad indictment on them that they have to resort to that when they can't fight it out n the track and in the design room.

And the rules aren't broken despite Horners attempts to break them, they remain intact.

[CookinFlat6]

The rules are broken because the engines don't sound good to those who haven't heard them, and because the 2 loser engines have to drive like taxi cabs conserving fuel and avoiding peak power. And ofcourse because Merc didn't tell them how to arrange the components and they don't know what to do with the extra year and extra tokens provided to IMPROVE their designs.

The problem with allowing them unlimited funds and time is that Merc won't tell them how to improve or how to develop with their tokens - that's really broken

'Please tell us in advance what we should be doing or Merc are killing competition, can't be expected to compete with Merc each year, it's simply not fair for companies that specialise in drinks and merchandise'

Maybe there should be better entry requirements to make sure only those that can afford to build their own engine designs take part otherwise it becomes like having Caterham and HRT making engines and expecting to survive

[sagi58]

As a point of interest, your indictment of Ferrari as being one of the

... companies that specialise in ...merchandise'...

is pretty silly, considering Mercedes is only in F1 to sell more road cars.

[sagi58]

...It has been obvious that the Germans have taken over this political aspect (as was strongly demonstrated by their control of the International Tribunal in last years Testing scandal)...

I'd pushed that "little" incident to the back of my mind; but, you're right!!
That was really the biggest fail of 2013 having Mercedes suggest their own
"punishment"!! What a farce that was!! I can't imagine that going over
very well, if it had been any other team to do so.

p.s. I just love the sound of those engines you posted. Of course, if Ferrari were as successful as Mercedes
has been this year, I'm sure I would be able to accept the vacuum cleaner sound we're hearing today.

[sagi58]

Maybe some good will come of the engine freeze:

CVC could pay small teams’ engine bills – report

Mercedes chairman Dieter Zetsche says he wants formula one to maintain a healthy grid.

As backmarkers hit the wall in 2014 and three more small teams argue loudly about costs and power, talks to fix the sport’s issues have so far produced scarce results.

But Zetsche told Germany’s Sport Bild: “Of course we have an interest that, within certain limits, we have a broad field of competitors.”

He said there are talks behind the scenes about how F1’s commercial income is split between the big and small teams and the owner CVC.

“In this respect, we are involved in constructive discussions,” added Zetsche.

Switzerland’s Blick reports that the latest idea to help Lotus, Force India and Sauber stay afloat involves the high cost of buying engines from the big carmaker teams.

The newspaper said that in the coming weeks, it will be discussed that instead of the small teams being billed directly, CVC will send payment for the expensive V6 engines straight to their suppliers Mercedes and Ferrari. (GMM)

[racechick]

Well that sounds a more sensible way forward than just trying turn the clocks back or penalise innovative engineering.

Sagi at the actual races, the F1 cars sound nothing like vaccume cleaners. They are more fuel efficient and are already reaching the speeds of their predecessors in just their first year of introduction. And they are giving us more exciting racing because they are more difficult to keep on the track.

[overboost]

Maybe some good will come of the engine freeze:

CVC could pay small teams’ engine bills – report

Mercedes chairman Dieter Zetsche says he wants formula one to maintain a healthy grid.

As backmarkers hit the wall in 2014 and three more small teams argue loudly about costs and power, talks to fix the sport’s issues have so far produced scarce results.

But Zetsche told Germany’s Sport Bild: “Of course we have an interest that, within certain limits, we have a broad field of competitors.”

He said there are talks behind the scenes about how F1’s commercial income is split between the big and small teams and the owner CVC.

“In this respect, we are involved in constructive discussions,” added Zetsche.

Switzerland’s Blick reports that the latest idea to help Lotus, Force India and Sauber stay afloat involves the high cost of buying engines from the big carmaker teams.

The newspaper said that in the coming weeks, it will be discussed that instead of the small teams being billed directly, CVC will send payment for the expensive V6 engines straight to their suppliers Mercedes and Ferrari. (GMM)

Majority should rule, except when they rule to give the 90 million Ferrari get just for being the red car, spread out to the bottom teams so they can better compete.

The bottom teams were doing fine until they were hit with $15M+ in 2014 for additional costs for the new engines. Why should Ferrari on their own have to pay to clean up that mess? That's an FIA/CVC/Ecclestone problem. CVC has made $8.2 Billion on F1 since 2006!

Good to see them dip into their vast $8.2 Billion profits. But this is only a stopgap as I doubt CVC is interested in doing this subsidy for multiple seasons. The high price engines will have to be addressed with significant rule changes probably along the lines of Horner's suggestions to standardize the ers and turbo bits etc.

[What's Burning?]

Mercedes has the cheapest engine on the grid. It also happens to be the best engine on the grid. Let's do something where Renault and Ferrari price match Mercedes first before we talk about doing something with these expensive engines... right OB?