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[Hammer278]

Point being, if you don't know something don't state it to prove an argument. What we see in the press is a general gist of what's been spoken and you already know this.

If it's the general gist of what's been spoken, then surely the general gist of Merc's proposals would have come up.

Merc probably haven't said anything because they don't want anything to change.

Anyway, if Merc would have said anything Horner would have blabbed it already. Or babbled it. Whatever.

If they don't want anything changed and haven't proposed anything, why would they go to a meeting? Wolff did say publicly that they are open to reasonable changes, maybe these reasonable changes proposed by Merc did not benefit the other teams too much so they preferred not to blab about it. And when they don't babble about it, it doesn't show up. There's no point assuming what might have been spoken or not, since you and I were not there. Which means Roth isn't in a position to babble and blab about around here making petty assumptions which mean squat.

[Roth]

You can go to meetings for any number of reasons. You go out of respect, as an act of good faith, to not appear irrational or rub people up the wrong way, or that even if you really don't think anything will come of it there's an off-chance something interesting might crop up, you might want genuine change, or they might just have nice biscuits. And if Merc had brought anything to the table which had been rejected it's not a great stretch to assume we'd be hearing about it; it's a subject that affects a core part of the sport and all teams, and within F1 media it's big talking point, there's a lot been written, so any Merc rumblings would have been reported. Maybe they have, maybe I missed them, I could be wrong, maybe you missed them too, I don't know.

But to flat out say I'm not allowed to say these things? Pull your head in, Hammer.

[Hammer278]

Take it easy Roth, don't start frothing so quickly...I said you're not in a position, not not allowed. You're allowed to say whatever the hell you desire. But this argument is a bit silly, its like trying to prove something which you'll never know. To put this in a well known concept, you're saying there are no aliens out there and I'm saying you cannot say that since you wouldn't know. And you can't prove me wrong since I'm not stating something close ended, you are.

Merc COULD have made a suggestion or steered the debate away to another solution, we'll never know. In your original post you said they are simply saying no and not putting forward solutions, well you were. not. there. in order to make this claim.

[CookinFlat6]

Merc proposed 5 tokens, as they felt they could wear the extra cost and not pass it on, but RBR said they wanted 15 or they would get a Ferrari to bring back unlimited development in 2016

So Merc made a reasonable offer, this is widely reported, anyone who doesn't know jack yet is willing to claim Merc was at the meeting for the biscuits instead of a quick google check .....will probably decide Toto has a mental weakness and is indecisive

[What's Burning?]

Roth, baby.. this very thread included the information that you're looking for. You have to make some type of an effort if you're going to argue for a point, you should do the research! That's a lot of change. To be fair, Renault's powerplant does include the required Total engine oil for two million.

Ferrari at $30 million. Maaa…

Renault at $40 million. Yougottabekiddinme…

Mercedes at $26 million. Ker-Ching!

Uh-duh…

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06/ ... 1-engines/

So you go to a meeting to hear proposals, and come to a suitable compromise. There is no suitable compromise is it? It's unfreeze the engine requlations, or give us 15 tokens, and don't pass the cost to the customers even though Mercedes is by far the cheapest to the customer as is. So be reasonable, and look at it from the right POV. Ferrari and Renault f*d up, and they're going to be paying the price for the f*up for a while. So we're fans of competition where two of the manufacturers spent the four years smoking, drinking, and buying hookers and blow. Blame Ferrari and Renault, not the rules.

[Ferrari man 009]

Personally, I would like to see car freezes across the board, except for unreliability.

So much money gets wasted mid-season trying to gain a tenth or two, so why not have a rule that whatever you bring to the first race is what you race for the season. If you mess up the aero then bad luck. The only thing that maybe is needed is that each team get maybe 3/4 allowed changes mid-season to remove reliability. Either that or have the car freeze from say Spain onwards.

I'd love to know the figures, but I reckon even the smaller teams would save millions by freezing ALL car development during the season.

[What's Burning?]

These are basic estimated costs. I've heard comments from Will Buxton on the grid that the top teams spend about 300k for a front wing and nosecone. I'll try to dig it up but I've also heard comments that costs in general have almost tripled in cost over the last 8 years.

Average Cost of Formula 1 Car (Component Price Breakdown)

[CookinFlat6]

Well said sensibleFerrariman

It does demonstrate how dumb the argument for unlimited development etc is, why not go back to having an engine last for each practice session - let's push the limits
And why not scrap parc ferme, keep the mechanics and engineers wringing every drop of performance all night rite up till the race starts
And why not bring in a rule that the car needs only last one race, surely that's the pinnacle of development when the car falls apart just after the chequered flag
But no they will point out what a waste that would be and suggest some restrictions
And agree the restrictions can be changed race by race if anyone is in the lead

Otherwise that would be stifling competition

Silly sausages

[What's Burning?]

300k for a front wing. Yikes, Maldonado.

[CookinFlat6]

With the engine costing so much, it does make a lot of sense to make F1 all about unlimited developement on the engine which is what the average fan sitting in the stands wants to marvel at as it over takes the other engines at 30k revs per minute in its pure diamond coated piston heads and cylinder caps which last 12 laps before having to be replaced at the next pit stop.

And to update this engine apparently is just as simple and cheap as ripping one decal off and sticking another on, or simply remove the cyylinder bank and replace the pistons for better ones just like that, everything will continue to work perfectly afterwards, just because I think thats how it works and thats my opinion and its just as valid as your so there

[Ferrari man 009]

I believe F1 should be the pinnacle of motorsport and motor technology, however, I do think the idea of Ferrari for example spending £2 million on R+D to bring a new front wing that gains them 0.1 seconds is crazy, and this is the kind of thing that should be scrapped mid season.

[Roth]

Take it easy Roth, don't start frothing so quickly...I said you're not in a position, not not allowed. You're allowed to say whatever the hell you desire. But this argument is a bit silly, its like trying to prove something which you'll never know. To put this in a well known concept, you're saying there are no aliens out there and I'm saying you cannot say that since you wouldn't know. And you can't prove me wrong since I'm not stating something close ended, you are.

Merc COULD have made a suggestion or steered the debate away to another solution, we'll never know. In your original post you said they are simply saying no and not putting forward solutions, well you were. not. there. in order to make this claim.

Well we both missed it because, as we've been reliably informed, it happened at the weekend. So Merc put forward a plan and it ends up in the press. Just. Strangely, it's not like it was caked all over F1 sites, or even sandwiched in between race coverage. JA didn't mention it, nor the judge, nor F1fanatic, the official site or Joe Saward either. Nobody here has said anything about it. I eventually found a piece, via another random forum, on Autosport, which is mainly a subscription site so I don't go there. Maybe everybody is getting fed up of the bunfight.

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/ ... s-collapse

[CookinFlat6]

Take it easy Roth, don't start frothing so quickly...I said you're not in a position, not not allowed. You're allowed to say whatever the hell you desire. But this argument is a bit silly, its like trying to prove something which you'll never know. To put this in a well known concept, you're saying there are no aliens out there and I'm saying you cannot say that since you wouldn't know. And you can't prove me wrong since I'm not stating something close ended, you are.

Merc COULD have made a suggestion or steered the debate away to another solution, we'll never know. In your original post you said they are simply saying no and not putting forward solutions, well you were. not. there. in order to make this claim.

Well we both missed it because, as we've been reliably informed, it happened at the weekend. So Merc put forward a plan and it ends up in the press. Just. Strangely, it's not like it was caked all over F1 sites, or even sandwiched in between race coverage. JA didn't mention it, nor the judge, nor F1fanatic, the official site or Joe Saward either. Nobody here has said anything about it. I eventually found a piece, via another random forum, on Autosport, which is mainly a subscription site so I don't go there. Maybe everybody is getting fed up of the bunfight.

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/ ... s-collapse

I posted that article 9 whole pages ago on this thread for those actually interested in the facts and realities, I even commented a few pages after that despite posting the facts there were a few members who continue to stick to what they think/wish/assume instead of actually reading responses to their questions let alone actually type a word in google search

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11628&start=637

[Roth]

Well there you go, I missed it. My apologies.

[CookinFlat6]

Np, at least you actually found it albeit 9 pages after

There are a couple of clowns around still insisting that merc are refusing to allow competition and that unlimited spending is the reason Ferrari cant express their engine building prowess