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[mnmracer]

The period between the 'trick' not working due to blown diffuser ban, and another similar 'trick' was also the period when Webber matched Seb on performance

just saying

Sure. That's why Vettel got the better of Webber in performance in 16 out of 19 races last year.

Ok so for 3 races Seb was unable to beat Webber and you are suggesting that was the period Seb had his 'trick' taken away?

Interesting

What have you been smoking?
You claim that when Seb didn't have his trick, Webber matched him. Facts say you're wrong.

[racechick]

Yes.

It's no disrespect to Seb that he was/is able to exploit Newey's car to the full. Just the opposite in fact. He can do it, Webber can't . Could Alonso? Could Hamilton? Possibly, probably. That's why those three are the best. But the fact remains when the rear downforce was not sufficient for 'the trick' to be employed, Webber was as fast. So the next question has to be ...how would Seb be without a genius car designer developing the car around his talents.

I don't understand this apparent need to selectively remember things to make things out to be what they aren't.

How am I being selective when I am not presenting facts I am posing a question? "How good would Seb be without a genius car designer developing the car around his talents?" That's a question not a selective presentation of facts. And I don't know the answer to it. The answer could be...still one if the top three drivers, it could be, not one. I suspect t he'd still be one of the top three drivers.

[CookinFlat6]

Rosberg can string together a race more effectively than Hamilton, in a similar fashion to Button.

[CookinFlat6]

The period between the 'trick' not working due to blown diffuser ban, and another similar 'trick' was also the period when Webber matched Seb on performance

just saying

Sure. That's why Vettel got the better of Webber in performance in 16 out of 19 races last year.

Ok so for 3 races Seb was unable to beat Webber and you are suggesting that was the period Seb had his 'trick' taken away?

Interesting

What have you been smoking?
You claim that when Seb didn't have his trick, Webber matched him. Facts say you're wrong.

Are you thick? you just said Webber outperformed Seb in 3 races. I am asking you if those 3 races were the ones in which the blown diffused was banned and Newey had not reconfigured the back to replace the downforce

Why do you have to start getting hysterical and acting like a teenager with hormonal imbalances any time anyone says Seb has a good car.

Are you saying Webber did not match Seb during the period the 'trick' was not used?

heres the clue from Hughes

When the 2012 regulations took most of the blown-diffuser effect away, the Red Bull initially was merely competitive – and into the bargain Vettel’s superiority over team-mate Mark Webber evaporated.

Thats the gist of it, now before you start twisting the stats and getting homornal, by claiming something stupid like Seb still beat him in one race, we are talking about overall performance differential between the 2. Without the trick Webber was closer to and several times on par with Seb

[mnmracer]

The period between the 'trick' not working due to blown diffuser ban, and another similar 'trick' was also the period when Webber matched Seb on performance

just saying

Sure. That's why Vettel got the better of Webber in performance in 16 out of 19 races last year.

Ok so for 3 races Seb was unable to beat Webber and you are suggesting that was the period Seb had his 'trick' taken away?

Interesting

What have you been smoking?
You claim that when Seb didn't have his trick, Webber matched him. Facts say you're wrong.

Are you thick? you just said Webber outperformed Seb in 3 races. I am asking you if those 3 races were the ones in which the blown diffused was banned and Newey had not reconfigured the back to replace the downforce

Why do you have to start getting hysterical and acting like a teenager with hormonal imbalances any time anyone says Seb has a good car.

Are you saying Webber did not match Seb during the period the 'trick' was not used?

Are you suggesting there were only 3 races where Red Bull didn't have 'the trick'?
How about you become less concerned with my hormones and more with your own morality. If you'd stop trying to deceive people with untrue statements or implicatations, everyone would be a whole lot happier.

[CookinFlat6]

You mentioned 3 races, you said 'well, Webber only beat Seb 3 times' so i asked if those 3 times were during the period. Now if the period was much longer, all that has to have happened to prove my point is that Seb lost his big advantage over webber. i.e his superiority over Webber was largely a function of the way Newey has built the car round Seb

especially with clutches that work

[mnmracer]

You mentioned 3 races, you said 'well, Webber only beat Seb 3 times' so i asked if those 3 times were during the period. Now if the period was much longer, all that has to have happened to prove my point is that Seb lost his big advantage over webber. i.e his superiority over Webber was largely a function of the way Newey has built the car round Seb

especially with clutches that work

Seriously dude, sober up and come back when you're not drunk anymore. You're talking nonsense.

The rear-grip returned around Singapore, race 14.
Vettel performed better than Webber in 11 out of 14 races.
Ergo, your claim that Vettel was only better because of the rear-grip, is deceptive and untrue.

[racechick]

I'd still rate Alonso and Vettel as better drivers over a full-race distance, but Hamilton is certainly a faster driver over the space of a lap, and when it comes to chasing down drivers and overtaking, but I think his aggression has a tendency to affect his overall race performance.

Do you have a recent example of this? Say the last couple of years? Is it similar to Seb crashing into Button when frustrated. Or is it better to be overcautious like Alonso in the last race of 2011 when he surrendered the title whilst making not a single attempt to pass Petrov?

Well that's it to a T really. Some drivers like to take risks, while others just cruise and collect but take any advantage that comes to them. Hamilton's 2011 season was an example of this. Button came out trumps over him because he was much better at putting together a whole race....

I've already mentioned Seb's 2010 season.

But I feel that Hamilton's driving style and overzealous approach at minimising the gap to the car in front translates to increased tire wear. This means a decreased level of flexibility when it comes to adapting to the changing race situation. I thought that this was also evident at times in the 2012 season.

The 2013 season, though. Hamilton has just been largely undone by his car... But Rosberg does have 1 more win than Hamilton this year... Even though Hamilton is quicker (and ultimately leading Rosberg in the championship through consistency), Rosberg can string together a race more effectively than Hamilton, in a similar fashion to Button.

Rosberg has also been exceptionally unlucky at times this season....

Note that I have stated that this opinion and not fact, so I don't necessarily have to back it up with stats. But if I wasn't drowsy from a sleeping pill as I am now, I would be happy to dig up a couple of examples.

I am at a loss as to how you have arrived at these conclusions

2013 Hamilton undone by his car??? The car has performed beyond expectation and Hamilton has driven superbly( so has Rosberg but I see no evidence of him outracing Lewis )

EDIT: oops! Forgot 2012! Now in that year he was undone by his car and/or team. Again he drove brilliantly that year.

2011 disastrous year for Hamilton. Partly I suspect from trying to get on terms with the much faster Re Bull, Button on the other hand was only concerned with beating Hamilton

2010. Well that's an interesting one. You have sited Hamilton as the over zealous and accident prone driver so it might interest you to see how many points were lost o each driver that year through DRIVER ERROR. It was Thus. Webber lost 16. Vettel lost 43. Alonso lost 34. Hamilton lost 12. So the myth that Hamilton takes undue chances and that Alonso is the most complete driver starts to unravel somewhat

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/10/19/h ... hip-by-59/

[CookinFlat6]

You mentioned 3 races, you said 'well, Webber only beat Seb 3 times' so i asked if those 3 times were during the period. Now if the period was much longer, all that has to have happened to prove my point is that Seb lost his big advantage over webber. i.e his superiority over Webber was largely a function of the way Newey has built the car round Seb

especially with clutches that work

Seriously dude, sober up and come back when you're not drunk anymore. You're talking nonsense.

The rear-grip returned around Singapore, race 14.
Vettel performed better than Webber in 11 out of 14 races.
Ergo, your claim that Vettel was only better because of the rear-grip, is deceptive and untrue.

Its obvious that your emotions over Seb override any logic

Wake up, we are discussing an article by Mark Hughes (check out the OP )

But Seb proved brilliantly adept at it. When the 2012 regulations took most of the blown-diffuser effect away, the Red Bull initially was merely competitive – and into the bargain Vettel’s superiority over team-mate Mark Webber evaporated.

Thats what the article says.

Dont start crying and attacking those of us discussing this article, man up and offer your own views on the article,

Discuss, dont whinge

[mnmracer]

You mentioned 3 races, you said 'well, Webber only beat Seb 3 times' so i asked if those 3 times were during the period. Now if the period was much longer, all that has to have happened to prove my point is that Seb lost his big advantage over webber. i.e his superiority over Webber was largely a function of the way Newey has built the car round Seb

especially with clutches that work

Seriously dude, sober up and come back when you're not drunk anymore. You're talking nonsense.

The rear-grip returned around Singapore, race 14.
Vettel performed better than Webber in 11 out of 14 races.
Ergo, your claim that Vettel was only better because of the rear-grip, is deceptive and untrue.

Its obvious that your emotions over Seb override any logic

Wake up, we are discussing an article by Mark Hughes (check out the OP )

But Seb proved brilliantly adept at it. When the 2012 regulations took most of the blown-diffuser effect away, the Red Bull initially was merely competitive – and into the bargain Vettel’s superiority over team-mate Mark Webber evaporated.

Thats what the article says.

Dont start crying and attacking those of us discussing this article, man up and offer your own views on the article,

Discuss, dont whinge

You make a claim -Webber matched Vettel because of the loss of EBD- which is untrue.
If you think calling someone out on lying is whinging, you should really re-examine your moral values, if you have any. Your behavior is disgusting and as long as you think it is acceptable to lie and deceive people, you will find me 'whinging'. If you don't have moral values that withold you from such disgusting behavior, then maybe at least the annoyance of it not being accepted will make you think twice.

[CookinFlat6]

[mnmracer]

Classy. Not even the decency to admit to his own behavior.

[CookinFlat6]

Seb lost his big performance advantage over Webber during the period his trick blown diffuser was taken away, and Webber matched and even beat him in some of the races

choke on it sonny

[mnmracer]

Seb lost his big performance advantage over Webber during the period his trick blown diffuser was taken away, and Webber matched and even beat him in some of the races

choke on it sonny

So now we've gone from "was also the period when Webber matched Seb on performance" to "matched and even beat him in some of the races".
See, now we have the facts on the table.
A shame you can't have the decency to admit to your own deceptive behavior, but at least it's clear for everyone to see how full of s*** you are.

Now, if you want to discuss, we can discuss if "matching and beating a team-mate" in 3 races over the season, can be considered "this driver is average without his trick". Let's examine another case: would we consider Alonso to be dependent on his 'trick' because Massa matched him in 3 races in the season? Or, since all those 3 races were in the same end of the year period, should we discuss if Alonso can't put together a strong end of the year campaign? Or should we just stop looking for excuses and accept that being 'matched and beaten' by former title contending, multiple-race winning team-mates, is nothing to be ashamed of, for neither Vettel nor Alonso.

[CookinFlat6]

I know you are in pain because it has been suggested Sebs big advantage comes from his car, but stop making an idiot of yourself. You have ended up in the same pointless nit picking over and over always about the same thing, Sebs car makes him look better, just grow up

Mark Hughes said, over the period Sebs trick was taken away Sebs performance advantage over Webber evaporated. We also know that Webber beat Seb during this period.

Over that period Webber matched Seb, now 'matched' has got your knickers in a twist because Webber beat Seb only 3 races out of a longer period.

Matched in F1 does not mean came equal, as that dosnt happen, it means the 2 performances were pretty equal, with one winning

So even if Seb won more the fact that before and after that period Webber no longer 'matched' Seb but was convincingly beaten the Mark Hughes' implication holds true

Without his trick Seb was sometimes better, sometimes worse than Webber, but with his trick he was much better. So as painful as it maybe to you the trick was a big part of the big difference in performance.

Finally why do you think Webber beat Seb on top gear?

becasue the reasonably priced car didnt have a blown difusser