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[racechick]

They are interesting examples, but, they don't address the point I made. However bad Webber was, however bad the things he did, how ever many times he did those things, Seb gave his word, in full knowledge of all of those events. So, Seb either gave his word with absolutely no intention of keeping it or he gave his word then decided that 7 points were more important to him than keeping his word. Either way big negatives in terms of personal character IMO.

So just that I understand you, you feel that not keeping your word to a 'not word keeper', is just as bad as not keeping your word to an honest man?

The importance of keeping your word should not be affected by whom you are giving it to. Either your word is important or not. If you value your own principles you should only give your word if you intend to keep it. Regardless of what the person has or hasn't done in the past.

That's my opinion. But it depends on ones own values I suppose, and the level of integrity that you hold yourself to.

if you give your word and break it then you only cheat yourself, you'll always know what you've done,

[What's Burning?]

I think the character trait is that he didn't care (at the time) what matters is the win. Do I believe the apology, no, do I believe that he'd have done the same thing given the same situation, yeah. Do I believe Vettel will squeal like a stuck pig, when Webber passes him for position? Do I believe that Webber will not give him an inch going forward? Absolutely. Do I belive it doesn't matter since there's a new number two coming into RBR next year?

Vettel did what Vettel does. The ones that look worst for it are the team principals, because they've been exposed as not having control of their driver dynamic. SF would never find itself in that position, McLaren lost partially LH because of the control they wanted to have on their drivers.

With this, Red Bull is red faced.

[Hammer278]

Flavio described Redbull as "having a team manager who has no balls" point blank. That's a sock in Horner's nuts if I ever saw one.

Will be interesting to see how it's handled from here on in. A front row Redbull lockout in qualifyings will be awesome from now onwards.

[racechick]

Yes it does add a touch of spice doesn't it

[spankyham]

No, I posit that there is a default no. 1 driver at Ferrari (MS, FA, whatever) and gets supported as no. 1

Correct - no dispute here. The only point that needs to be added is that both #1 and #2 drivers know and must accept that #2 can work his way to the #1 position.

If for whatever reason the no. 2 driver happens to do better, then, only then, the Scuderia supports him as the defacto no. 1

Correct and exactly what I have said many times previously.

Back to SV: he's the clear no. 1 driver (and leading the no. 2 driver in the points). He would NOT be in a similar situation at Ferrari. The number 2 driver would have swapped position right away around lap 19 or maybe at the following pit stop. End of story.

That is absolute dribble and poppycock. This is what you want to believe to fuel and justify your bent on Ferrari - it has no basis in reality.

Not that any amount of facts will alter your bias but, for the open readers, you only have to go back to the start of the 2011 season. Nando finishes ahead of Felipe in Aust so goes to Malaysia as the #1 with a points lead over #2. Yet in Malaysia Felipe finishes one place ahead of Nando. At the very next race, China, exactly the same thing happens and again Felipe finishes one place ahead of Nando.

[spankyham]

They are interesting examples, but, they don't address the point I made. However bad Webber was, however bad the things he did, how ever many times he did those things, Seb gave his word, in full knowledge of all of those events. So, Seb either gave his word with absolutely no intention of keeping it or he gave his word then decided that 7 points were more important to him than keeping his word. Either way big negatives in terms of personal character IMO.

So just that I understand you, you feel that not keeping your word to a 'not word keeper', is just as bad as not keeping your word to an honest man?

The importance of keeping your word should not be affected by whom you are giving it to. Either your word is important or not. If you value your own principles you should only give your word if you intend to keep it. Regardless of what the person has or hasn't done in the past.

That's my opinion. But it depends on ones own values I suppose, and the level of integrity that you hold yourself to.

Completely agree with LRW on this. Your word and how you keep it is a reflection on you.

[spankyham]

i agree the team will back whoever has the lead in the championship at that tipping point but the real question is will alonso follow suit? will he graciously give way for felipe and be a team player or will he bitch and moan? cause isnt it in his contract that he is regarded as the number one and must be treated as so?

This is a fair question. Perhaps, a little older and with the strength and "team-1st contract" of Ferrari he may well react differently in 2013 than he might have acted 5 years ago.

Please, we all saw what kind of trouble McLaren had to deal with even though there wasn't a No.1 clause in the contract....imagine if he had to do it having signed asking for preferential treatment. Probably burn Maranello down one night with the other 6 dwarfs.

I think there are some differences now to then. Perhaps you don't think they would change things, but I feel they will have an effect. Firstly Nando has matured and that, in part at least, has come from being at Ferrari. Also, Ferrari has strength and contract that is clear and strong on this exact point.

I'd love to see this tested, so I'd love to see Felipe continue his great form. Felipe winning in China would be such a sweet thing for me to watch. But then again, according to DD's logic and intimate knowledge of the internal machinations of SF, that is impossible.

[mnmracer]

Very interesting story from Autosport:

I suspect I'm in the minority here, but I believe Sebastian Vettel’s apology to Red Bull team-mate Mark Webber was genuine. How so? Because it wasn’t that Sebastian who had something to apologise for – hence his “I didn’t do it on purpose” qualification, which taken at face value makes no sense at all. That’s because the Sebastian who did do it deliberately – quite outrageously ignoring a direct team order to pass Mark Webber to win – is the one who takes over when he puts his helmet on.

I’ve met this Sebastian once. I intercepted him between parc ferme and the weighbridge after an F3 Euro Series race that he’d messed up in. The helmet was off, but it was so soon after the race that ‘other Sebastian’ was still in residence. His personality was totally different, ugly almost. “Seething” is the word I wrote in my notepad – he said so few words I had little else to jot down.

On Sunday, we heard him growl on the radio: “Mark is too slow, get him out of the way.” Even Helmut Marko admits that this Sebastian is “out of control”. So what chance does Christian Horner have?

Sounds a bit like Senna (no, I'm not saying as good as, don't derail this): a ruthless racer on the track, a friendly chap off the track.

[racechick]

Very interesting story from Autosport:

I suspect I'm in the minority here, but I believe Sebastian Vettel’s apology to Red Bull team-mate Mark Webber was genuine. How so? Because it wasn’t that Sebastian who had something to apologise for – hence his “I didn’t do it on purpose” qualification, which taken at face value makes no sense at all. That’s because the Sebastian who did do it deliberately – quite outrageously ignoring a direct team order to pass Mark Webber to win – is the one who takes over when he puts his helmet on.

I’ve met this Sebastian once. I intercepted him between parc ferme and the weighbridge after an F3 Euro Series race that he’d messed up in. The helmet was off, but it was so soon after the race that ‘other Sebastian’ was still in residence. His personality was totally different, ugly almost. “Seething” is the word I wrote in my notepad – he said so few words I had little else to jot down.

On Sunday, we heard him growl on the radio: “Mark is too slow, get him out of the way.” Even Helmut Marko admits that this Sebastian is “out of control”. So what chance does Christian Horner have?

Sounds a bit like Senna (no, I'm not saying as good as, don't derail this): a ruthless racer on the track, a friendly chap off the track.

I dont know who I'd liken Vettel to? But certainly not Senna. Maybe more like Schumacher.........

[Jabberwocky]

Senna seemed to be closer to god in the car.

Why is everyone so surprised that Vettel has a win at all cost attitude.

[Snowball]

Senna seemed to be closer to god in the car.

Why is everyone so surprised that Vettel has a win at all cost attitude.

Because cheating is wrong and if any of us were presented with the same opportunity we wouldn't have been so cheeky *cough*

[andrew]

He didn't cheat.

[Jabberwocky]

Maybe that is why none of us are 3 times world drivers champion

[racechick]

Maybe that is why none of us are 3 times world drivers champion

Maybe. But maybe that's just because we don't drive a Red Bull

[Snowball]

Maybe that is why none of us are 3 times world drivers champion

Maybe. But maybe that's just because we don't drive a Red Bull

I tried but they threatened court action...