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[spankyham]

Really, Webber should have known that Vettel would do exactly what he did. For me, there are two reasons he should have known:-
1) The real boss in the team is Marko and he should have known Marko would have completely backed Vettel ignoring Horner's instructions - just as he will do next time.
2) It's clearly Vettel's nature to take all sorts of risks chasing points, just as he did when he took both himself and Webber out in Turkey

On Vettel doing what he did, well, within the Red Bull team it was clearly acceptable - so IMO why should he cop the brunt of blame?

Leaving aside the team aspect, if we are talking soley about his "character" that's a different thing altogether. He clearly had given his word to Webber on how they would behave in the given circumstances - he made a conscious decision to break his word to gain 7 points - that speaks to his character. Secondly he qualified his apology by saying it was a mistake. That is simply ridiculous - its like someone in a **** case saying "well, I was walking down the street and I tripped and fell and my #$^% accidentally landed in her @#$%^" Again this speaks poorly to his character.

[spankyham]

The only #2 at Ferrari that came close in recent times is Eddie Irvine but that was because Schumacher crashed and spent 1/3rd of the season on the sidelines. Massa was #2 to MSC, then Raikkonen and now Alonso!

Kimi moved over for Felipe in '08 - get your facts straight please.

[mnmracer]

1) The real boss in the team is Marko and he should have known Marko would have completely backed Vettel ignoring Horner's instructions - just as he will do next time.

The real boss is Dietrich Mateschitz, who is buddies with Mark (without the O).

2) It's clearly Vettel's nature to take all sorts of risks chasing points, just as he did when he took both himself and Webber out in Turkey

Webber never takes all sorts of risk chasing points?

Leaving aside the team aspect, if we are talking soley about his "character" that's a different thing altogether. He clearly had given his word to Webber on how they would behave in the given circumstances - he made a conscious decision to break his word to gain 7 points - that speaks to his character.

There's a difference between going through things, and 'clearly giving your word to your colleague'.
A much larger aspect is, he is 'breaking his word' to a colleague that on multiple occasions has 'broken his word'. Quite something different than breaking your word to a colleague that has always kept his word.

Secondly he qualified his apology by saying it was a mistake. That is simply ridiculous - its like someone in a **** case saying "well, I was walking down the street and I tripped and fell and my #$^% accidentally landed in her @#$%^" Again this speaks poorly to his character.

That I agree on, but probably has mostly to do with age.
I reckon his balls will descend outside the car soon enough.

[myownalias]

The only #2 at Ferrari that came close in recent times is Eddie Irvine but that was because Schumacher crashed and spent 1/3rd of the season on the sidelines. Massa was #2 to MSC, then Raikkonen and now Alonso!

Kimi moved over for Felipe in '08 - get your facts straight please.

I'm not talking about who moved over for who; Massa was not clear #1, it was more like Raikkonen's heart wasn't in the 2008 season... I'm sure you'll disagree, but that's OK, it'd be a boring forum if we all agreed!

[spankyham]

But you bemoan Red Bull using team orders then justify Ferrari doing the same thing.

I don't bemoan Red Bull using team orders - I might have laughed and poked fun at them a few years back when they were straight faced on TV saying they don't give orders to their drivers. Anyone here could educate you that I have always been a staunch supporter of Team Orders.

I cannot name a single no. 2 driver who has prospered at Ferrari.

I already told you - '99 Irvine was #2 and Schumi was ordered to move over for him - because it was Irvine at the end of the season with the chance to win another title for the team. There was also '08 when Kimi moved over for Felipe in China and went on record before Brazil saying he would do the same there to help Felipe.

[spankyham]

The only #2 at Ferrari that came close in recent times is Eddie Irvine but that was because Schumacher crashed and spent 1/3rd of the season on the sidelines. Massa was #2 to MSC, then Raikkonen and now Alonso!

Kimi moved over for Felipe in '08 - get your facts straight please.

I'm not talking about who moved over for who; Massa was not clear #1, it was more like Raikkonen's heart wasn't in the 2008 season... I'm sure you'll disagree, but that's OK, it'd be a boring forum if we all agreed!

True, but I think we actually agree that Kimi was the #1 driver going into '08 and it was Felipe who worked himself into the position - and the team duly swung the support behind him.

[andrew]

I cannot name a single no. 2 driver who has prospered at Ferrari.

I already told you - '99 Irvine was #2 and Schumi was ordered to move over for him - because it was Irvine at the end of the season with the chance to win another title for the team. There was also '08 when Kimi moved over for Felipe in China and went on record before Brazil saying he would do the same there to help Felipe.

At that point Irvine had become the no. 1 driver with Mika Salo as his no. 2. Schumacher had to drive as the no. 2 seeing as he had missed 7 races. In 2008 it was clear to see that Raikkonen had given up and seemed totally disinterested with F1 but again, which driver was ahead in Ferrari at that time - Massa. Again Ferrari with the clear no. 1 and no. 2 status.

Now we have a situation where Massa is matching Alonso so surely they should be left to race on equal terms until a clear leader emerges? In reality, what'll happen is that Massa will be given instructions to tell him to jump out the way.

[spankyham]

1) The real boss in the team is Marko and he should have known Marko would have completely backed Vettel ignoring Horner's instructions - just as he will do next time.

The real boss is Dietrich Mateschitz, who is buddies with Mark (without the O).

We simply disagree on this - there won't be any disagreements with DM - he's the boss. He will speak positively to Mark and Seb. But in terms of decisions and more importantly "actions" it is clearly the one with the "O" that calls the shots. But I can accept that you have your view which is different here.

2) It's clearly Vettel's nature to take all sorts of risks chasing points, just as he did when he took both himself and Webber out in Turkey

Webber never takes all sorts of risk chasing points?

Webber's not the one under scrutiny - and, as you so eloquently pointed out in an earlier post, if Webber was a thief would that make Seb stealing stuff be ok?

Leaving aside the team aspect, if we are talking soley about his "character" that's a different thing altogether. He clearly had given his word to Webber on how they would behave in the given circumstances - he made a conscious decision to break his word to gain 7 points - that speaks to his character.

There's a difference between going through things, and 'clearly giving your word to your colleague'.
A much larger aspect is, he is 'breaking his word' to a colleague that on multiple occasions has 'broken his word'. Quite something different than breaking your word to a colleague that has always kept his word.

Even if your supposition is 100% accurate, Seb gave his word knowing that (as all those things had happened beforehand). So are you saying its "ok" to give your word with no intention of keeping it because the person your giving your word to has done something wrong in the past? Seb entered into an agreement with Mark and he broke his word without any genuine remorse for the sake of 7 points. As far as character goes, that's a pretty big negative.

Secondly he qualified his apology by saying it was a mistake. That is simply ridiculous - its like someone in a **** case saying "well, I was walking down the street and I tripped and fell and my #$^% accidentally landed in her @#$%^" Again this speaks poorly to his character.

That I agree on, but probably has mostly to do with age.
I reckon his balls will descend outside the car soon enough.

[spankyham]

I cannot name a single no. 2 driver who has prospered at Ferrari.

I already told you - '99 Irvine was #2 and Schumi was ordered to move over for him - because it was Irvine at the end of the season with the chance to win another title for the team. There was also '08 when Kimi moved over for Felipe in China and went on record before Brazil saying he would do the same there to help Felipe.

At that point Irvine had become the no. 1 driver with Mika Salo as his no. 2. Schumacher had to drive as the no. 2 seeing as he had missed 7 races. In 2008 it was clear to see that Raikkonen had given up and seemed totally disinterested with F1 but again, which driver was ahead in Ferrari at that time - Massa. Again Ferrari with the clear no. 1 and no. 2 status.

Now we have a situation where Massa is matching Alonso so surely they should be left to race on equal terms until a clear leader emerges? In reality, what'll happen is that Massa will be given instructions to tell him to jump out the way.

I knew when I started this with you Andrew that, no matter what facts I would put down you would just keep twisting things until you got what you wanted - a way to hate SF. My bad, but I've surely learned my lesson.

[1Lemon]

I cannot name a single no. 2 driver who has prospered at Ferrari.

I already told you - '99 Irvine was #2 and Schumi was ordered to move over for him - because it was Irvine at the end of the season with the chance to win another title for the team. There was also '08 when Kimi moved over for Felipe in China and went on record before Brazil saying he would do the same there to help Felipe.

At that point Irvine had become the no. 1 driver with Mika Salo as his no. 2. Schumacher had to drive as the no. 2 seeing as he had missed 7 races. In 2008 it was clear to see that Raikkonen had given up and seemed totally disinterested with F1 but again, which driver was ahead in Ferrari at that time - Massa. Again Ferrari with the clear no. 1 and no. 2 status.

Now we have a situation where Massa is matching Alonso so surely they should be left to race on equal terms until a clear leader emerges? In reality, what'll happen is that Massa will be given instructions to tell him to jump out the way.

I knew when I started this with you Andrew that, no matter what facts I would put down you would just keep twisting things until you got what you wanted - a way to hate SF. My bad, but I've surely learned my lesson.

He still has a point though, whilst Alonso is at Ferrari, Massa will always be #2, just how it is, doesn't mean they both can't be competitive though.

[andrew]

I cannot name a single no. 2 driver who has prospered at Ferrari.

I already told you - '99 Irvine was #2 and Schumi was ordered to move over for him - because it was Irvine at the end of the season with the chance to win another title for the team. There was also '08 when Kimi moved over for Felipe in China and went on record before Brazil saying he would do the same there to help Felipe.

At that point Irvine had become the no. 1 driver with Mika Salo as his no. 2. Schumacher had to drive as the no. 2 seeing as he had missed 7 races. In 2008 it was clear to see that Raikkonen had given up and seemed totally disinterested with F1 but again, which driver was ahead in Ferrari at that time - Massa. Again Ferrari with the clear no. 1 and no. 2 status.

Now we have a situation where Massa is matching Alonso so surely they should be left to race on equal terms until a clear leader emerges? In reality, what'll happen is that Massa will be given instructions to tell him to jump out the way.

I knew when I started this with you Andrew that, no matter what facts I would put down you would just keep twisting things until you got what you wanted - a way to hate SF. My bad, but I've surely learned my lesson.

He still has a point though, whilst Alonso is at Ferrari, Massa will always be #2, just how it is, doesn't mean they both can't be competitive though.

Exactly. There is absolutely no reason why Massa cannot be allowed to race Alonso on equal terms until such time that a clear leader emerges.

[myownalias]

The only #2 at Ferrari that came close in recent times is Eddie Irvine but that was because Schumacher crashed and spent 1/3rd of the season on the sidelines. Massa was #2 to MSC, then Raikkonen and now Alonso!

Kimi moved over for Felipe in '08 - get your facts straight please.

I'm not talking about who moved over for who; Massa was not clear #1, it was more like Raikkonen's heart wasn't in the 2008 season... I'm sure you'll disagree, but that's OK, it'd be a boring forum if we all agreed!

True, but I think we actually agree that Kimi was the #1 driver going into '08 and it was Felipe who worked himself into the position - and the team duly swung the support behind him.

I can agree with that statement, but it is somewhat of a rarity. Ferrari rarely pick two top drivers for their line up; the reality more often than not; if a #2 driver is a good boy and adheres to the Ferrari line, he will remain for many years, but often be leapfrogged by a star driver coming in from another team rather than being promoted to #1 with another driver taking the #2 position!

[1Lemon]

The only #2 at Ferrari that came close in recent times is Eddie Irvine but that was because Schumacher crashed and spent 1/3rd of the season on the sidelines. Massa was #2 to MSC, then Raikkonen and now Alonso!

Kimi moved over for Felipe in '08 - get your facts straight please.

I'm not talking about who moved over for who; Massa was not clear #1, it was more like Raikkonen's heart wasn't in the 2008 season... I'm sure you'll disagree, but that's OK, it'd be a boring forum if we all agreed!

True, but I think we actually agree that Kimi was the #1 driver going into '08 and it was Felipe who worked himself into the position - and the team duly swung the support behind him.

I can agree with that statement, but it is somewhat of a rarity. Ferrari rarely pick two top drivers for their line up; the reality more often than not; if a #2 driver is a good boy and adheres to the Ferrari line, he will remain for many years, but often be leapfrogged by a star driver coming in from another team rather than being promoted to #1 with another driver taking the #2 position!

Exactly, maybe Massa should think about replacing Webber if/when he leaves Red Bull. At least they would let them race a bit until they see who is leading the championship.

[mnmracer]

Webber's not the one under scrutiny - and, as you so eloquently pointed out in an earlier post, if Webber was a thief would that make Seb stealing stuff be ok?

Would it be ok to steal from a thief?
Well, it would be a whole lot less bad then to steal from someone innocent.
If I knew my neighbor was a (albeit bad) burglar, who tried to steal my stuff several times, I would be less inclined to call the police when I hear noises in the night.

Even if your supposition is 100% accurate, Seb gave his word knowing that (as all those things had happened beforehand). So are you saying its "ok" to give your word with no intention of keeping it because the person your giving your word to has done something wrong in the past? Seb entered into an agreement with Mark and he broke his word without any genuine remorse for the sake of 7 points. As far as character goes, that's a pretty big negative.

that 'something wrong in the past' is kind of important though.
would it be acceptable if Webber hadn't invited Vettel for his birthday parties? no.
would it be acceptable to break your promise to someone who has broken their promise to you several times, with much more severe potential consequences? well, I would wonder why I would make a promise to that person in the first place. and if it comes to a point where I feel the need to break that promise, I would certainly not feel as bad. "if he's not willing to keep his promise to me, why should I suffer to keep my promise to him"

You can say things about character, but the context is very important.
If as a teacher you see some kid beat up another kid, would you (be inclined to) punish him? Most likely.
If as a teacher you see a kid beat up the bully that has beaten him up three times before, would you (be inclined to) punish him as badly (if at all), when you haven't punished the bully when he beat that kid up? I wouldn't.

[spankyham]

He still has a point though, whilst Alonso is at Ferrari, Massa will always be #2, just how it is, doesn't mean they both can't be competitive though.

The point IMO is - and history clearly backs it up, Ferrari have a #1 and #2 driver. The #2 driver can bank on one thing, if by driving (Felipe 08) or luck (Irvine 99) the #2 can become #1 (no matter who the #1 was) and the team will continue to back the #1. Those are the facts as Schumi and Kimi can attest.

What that means for Felipe is, if he can put himself into the dominant position by the business time of this year, he will be the #1 and Nando will be told to pull over for him.