FORUMula1.com

[bud]

Why does he point out Ferrari?

[spankyham]

Why does he point out Ferrari?

My guess is Red Bull/Helmut are pissed off at Ferrari because, in the meeting last Thursday (team technical reps and FiA), Red Bull wanted to dilute the FiA's actions and Ferrari wouldn't support them.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

The FIA are basically manipulating the results, it was apparent from the very first race of the season that the EBD (Exhaust Blown Diffuser) system was an clear infringement of the rules, Charlie Whiting acknowledged that; why did they not say your cars are illegal infringing article x.xx and remove the cars running the EBD system from the classifications for Australia instead of allowing the few teams to get away with it for eight races and now that others are developing a similar system and the playing field is starting to level out, suddenly the EBD system is being banned.

It didn't suit them then.

- also, its not EBD's that are banned, in fact EBDs will stay for the rest of the year and rules will be changed for next year to ban them - it is engine overrun that is being acted upon not EBDs

Charlie Whiting was not born GOD. Merely because it issued from his mouth does not make it true. Rinnow have taken ...Mods, can I use the spelling "Rinnow" without fear of admonishment, because that is how the bleedin' FROGs pronounce it, and they can't spell English for shy... ... oh, nevermind.

Rinnow have taken the precaution of rolling the late fuel injection and retarded timing -- my apologies to the mentally handicapped -- into their exhaust valve cooling scheme. Their reliability will suffer grievously if they are forced to alter it.

So who have been the cheekier monkey, Rinnow or the FIA?

[spankyham]

If Renault or Red Bull or any other team things Charlie is wrong, they can challenge and, if they are right, overturn his decision. As it stands, the overrun is in breach of Art. 3.15 (as it was written at the start of the year).

If anyone suffers because they are being forced to comply with the rules - stiff cheddar.

[What's Burning?]

Rinnow have taken the precaution of rolling the late fuel injection and retarded timing -- my apologies to the mentally handicapped -- into their exhaust valve cooling scheme.

slippery slope around the minute twenty mark.

[deMuRe]

Rinnow have taken the precaution of rolling the late fuel injection and retarded timing -- my apologies to the mentally handicapped -- into their exhaust valve cooling scheme.

slippery slope around the minute twenty mark.

[darwin dali]

With the ban on changing engine mapping between quali and the race having seemingly no effect on RB's performance, the next rule 'clarification' will have a bit of a more substantial effect.

Or will it?

[spankyham]

With the ban on changing engine mapping between quali and the race having seemingly no effect on RB's performance, the next rule 'clarification' will have a bit of a more substantial effect.

Or will it?

I think Vettel only ran without the overrun only in the Friday practice sessions. Saturday and Sunday he used the overrun. But that's just me and only going on the sound - someone who was there would be able to tell us for sure.

[myownalias]

With the ban on changing engine mapping between quali and the race having seemingly no effect on RB's performance, the next rule 'clarification' will have a bit of a more substantial effect.

Or will it?

I think Vettel only ran without the overrun only in the Friday practice sessions. Saturday and Sunday he used the overrun. But that's just me and only going on the sound - someone who was there would be able to tell us for sure.

I believe you're right; I remember the BBC five live commentary team mentioning that Vettel/Red Bull were testing a non-overrun system in FP1!

I believe that Adrian Newey will have a backup plan; Newey and RB knew that they were in breach of the rules on a technicality so I'd be surprised if they don't have an alternative design!

[bud]

With the ban on changing engine mapping between quali and the race having seemingly no effect on RB's performance, the next rule 'clarification' will have a bit of a more substantial effect.

Or will it?

Probably will somewhat, But RedBulls overall package should keep them up front. It is a bit rough on teams who designed their cars around a system to have it outlawed in the middle of the season. Is Charlie and the FIA so dimwitted that it took them the last part of last year, winter testing and a 2 thirds of this season to realise off throttle exhaust blown diffusers are an illegal aero device. Something is a bit fishy about the timing of it all if you ask me.

With the ban on changing engine mapping between quali and the race having seemingly no effect on RB's performance, the next rule 'clarification' will have a bit of a more substantial effect.

Or will it?

I think Vettel only ran without the overrun only in the Friday practice sessions. Saturday and Sunday he used the overrun. But that's just me and only going on the sound - someone who was there would be able to tell us for sure.

I believe you're right; I remember the BBC five live commentary team mentioning that Vettel/Red Bull were testing a non-overrun system in FP1!

I believe that Adrian Newey will have a backup plan; Newey and RB knew that they were in breach of the rules on a technicality so I'd be surprised if they don't have an alternative design!

We don't know if Ferrari and McLaren ran it on Friday either. It's one thing to always bring up Redbull Redbull and Redbull all the time when talking about EBD but all the top teams use it.
In the end if people think this is the be all and end all of RedBulls dominance then think again, I am sure Renault also use the same engine mapping in Qualifying and they are not anywhere near their pace. The RB7 is the total package!

[FerrariFan63]

The reasoning behind the ban and the exhaust blown diffusers being illegal is that moving parts in the engine are effecting aerodynamics.

However, this opens up an entirely new area of illegality of the cars. Cars have wheels, these wheels move, and the movement of the wheels directly affects the aerodynamics of the car. The faster the wheels move, the faster the air flows over the wings, and the greater amount of downforce that they produce.

What's more, driver actions can actually move these wheels, angling the front wheels left and right, with most drivers doing this many times in a single lap. The angled wheels will affect the airflow over the car, and hence the aerodynamics. Furthermore, "brakes" are used to slow the motion of the wheels, which again changes the airflow and hence the aerodynamics. Meaning that the driver can load and unload the rear wing at will. Clearly this amount of driver control over aerodynamics goes far beyond anything possible with the now-banned F-Duct.

If the FIA is to remain consistent, then they must ban moveable wheels with immediate effect. The top teams tend to have wheels that move faster than the back-markers, with some teams such as HRT sometimes not having moveable wheels at all. This means that banning moveable wheels would have the effect of considerably equalising the grid.

[spankyham]

Probably will somewhat, But RedBulls overall package should keep them up front. It is a bit rough on teams who designed their cars around a system to have it outlawed in the middle of the season. Is Charlie and the FIA so dimwitted that it took them the last part of last year, winter testing and a 2 thirds of this season to realise off throttle exhaust blown diffusers are an illegal aero device. Something is a bit fishy about the timing of it all if you ask me.

I agree the FiA's actions are very very fishy! But, for me it is why have they acted so fast on every other rule breach this year, yet, on this one, they have just dragged and dragged their heels. Irrespective of how much advantage Red Bull are getting out of it, it is something - and they are finally taking action, but only once the championships are all but done and dusted - very suspicious.

I cringed when I read this quote from Charlie Whiting given at Valencia "We haven't made any changes to the rules; all we are doing is stopping people breaking the rules." I wish I was there to ask him why is the FiA so fast to penalise Sauber for breaking the rules in Australia, or to ban Ferrari's gurney flap in Barcelona yet they let Red Bull get away with "breaking the rules" for eight races!

We don't know if Ferrari and McLaren ran it on Friday either. It's one thing to always bring up Redbull Redbull and Redbull all the time when talking about EBD but all the top teams use it.
In the end if people think this is the be all and end all of RedBulls dominance then think again, I am sure Renault also use the same engine mapping in Qualifying and they are not anywhere near their pace. The RB7 is the total package!

I completely agree that most people are probably way overestimating the effect the ban will have on Red Bull. They are not going to suddenly drop away. No-one really knows the effect the ban will have, but one thing is for sure, rules shouldn't be enforced based on how much effect they will or won't have on any given team, they should simply be enforced without fear or favour.

[spankyham]

The reasoning behind the ban and the exhaust blown diffusers being illegal is that moving parts in the engine are effecting aerodynamics.

However, this opens up an entirely new area of illegality of the cars. Cars have wheels, these wheels move, and the movement of the wheels directly affects the aerodynamics of the car. The faster the wheels move, the faster the air flows over the wings, and the greater amount of downforce that they produce.

What's more, driver actions can actually move these wheels, angling the front wheels left and right, with most drivers doing this many times in a single lap. The angled wheels will affect the airflow over the car, and hence the aerodynamics. Furthermore, "brakes" are used to slow the motion of the wheels, which again changes the airflow and hence the aerodynamics. Meaning that the driver can load and unload the rear wing at will. Clearly this amount of driver control over aerodynamics goes far beyond anything possible with the now-banned F-Duct.

If the FIA is to remain consistent, then they must ban moveable wheels with immediate effect. The top teams tend to have wheels that move faster than the back-markers, with some teams such as HRT sometimes not having moveable wheels at all. This means that banning moveable wheels would have the effect of considerably equalising the grid.

I don't think this is opening anything new and I believe the FiA's logic is correct. They have explained that it is the purpose of the part that determines whether it a part having aero influence.

You need to consider it this way, the inherent purpose of the engine is to propel the car. The inherent purpose of the wheels is to steer the car and transfer power. These are not aero purposes. Now consider the case of the engine. Extreme overrun has nothing to do with propelling the car. Therefore, the purpose of the engine, whilst it is doing the extreme overrun changes to a part that is there to influence the aeros of the car. For me that's a clear breach of Article 3.15.

In the end I do appreciate that there are others who don't see it that way, but if the FiA have said they believe it is a breach and they do believe teams are breaking the existing rule, I can't for the life of me understand why the FiA has allowed them to get away with it for 8 races!

If any teams believe the FiA is wrong, they are perfectly at liberty to challenge them and, if they can prove the FiA are wrong they can overturn their ruling.

[bud]

See youre insinuating the FIA is favouring RedBull while I think they are trying to bring them down to earth.
I think if they really wanted RedBull to win then they wouldn't even be following through with this. No team has protested, the FIA instigated this all on their lonesome.

On the wheels well yeah i have jokingly in the past also described them as moving aero but in all reality they are a burden to the open wheeler than anything else when it comes to aero efficiency.

[spankyham]

See youre insinuating the FIA is favouring RedBull while I think they are trying to bring them down to earth.
I think if they really wanted RedBull to win then they wouldn't even be following through with this. No team has protested, the FIA instigated this all on their lonesome.

On the wheels well yeah i have jokingly in the past also described them as moving aero but in all reality they are a burden to the open wheeler than anything else when it comes to aero efficiency.

The FiA really leave themselves open to speculation about their motives by they way they have acted. Waiting 8 races to act - well, it just doesn't make sense. I can see both side of the conspiracy theories. In the end its more likely to be plain incompetence. But really, they should have made a decision, one way or the other, at the start of the season. CW said they knew about it then. They should have come out then and either said "its legal" or "its illegal". Acting now sucks.

Of course you're completely right on the wheels, they are an aero hindrance, perhaps AN will make them redundant on the RB8.