FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[bud]

Wings work by exactly the same principle. Lift is directly proportional to drag. No wing can create downforce unless it also creates drag, which means the car must burn additional fuel strictly for the purpose of driving that wing through the air and causing it to generate downforce.

That's what I was thinking, Surely by making the car faster this in effect makes them more efficient.

[spankyham]

Come on now you can't let them introduce turbo inline 4's or 6clys and allows gimmicks like this to run rampant. It is a total waste of fuel. I understand going :green: should have no place here, but it does, and I have to live it , so it makes sense. Besides it'll make for interesting races

I don't think the fuel saved or wasted by the overrun with the improved aeros is relevant, but, that's a separate argument on whether they should change the rules to allow it or not.

For me, the issue is that the FiA has already stated that in their opinion it breaches article 3.15 - period.

What really irks me is that the FiA sees this breach but refuses to act - thereby allowing some teams to gain a "cheated" advantage. In other cases, when they see a breach of the rules they immediately act - e,g, Sauber in Australia, Ferrari in Barcelona.

If the FiA sees someone breaking the rules, then they should act immediately.

[Jabberwocky]

I think that this is just the FIA/Benie's way of slowing Redbull down to increase the show. Much like they did with the Mass Damper when Renault where doing well

[spankyham]

I think that this is just the FIA/Benie's way of slowing Redbull down to increase the show. Much like they did with the Mass Damper when Renault where doing well

I would have said entirely the opposite. If the FiA/Bernie wanted to even things up they would have banned it as soon as they declared it was breaching the rules.

The fact is, they have said it breaches the rules, but they will let it continue for a couple of more months (until Silverstone). Pretty obvious by then RB will have wrapped the season up. Only then will they will take away their illegal bits (far too late for the other teams).

[Jabberwocky]

I think that this is just the FIA/Benie's way of slowing Redbull down to increase the show. Much like they did with the Mass Damper when Renault where doing well

I would have said entirely the opposite. If the FiA/Bernie wanted to even things up they would have banned it as soon as they declared it was breaching the rules.

The fact is, they have said it breaches the rules, but they will let it continue for a couple of more months (until Silverstone). Pretty obvious by then RB will have wrapped the season up. Only then will they will take away their illegal bits (far too late for the other teams).

but the clawing back of points to catch a nobbled team is much more exciting.

[spankyham]

I think that this is just the FIA/Benie's way of slowing Redbull down to increase the show. Much like they did with the Mass Damper when Renault where doing well

I would have said entirely the opposite. If the FiA/Bernie wanted to even things up they would have banned it as soon as they declared it was breaching the rules.

The fact is, they have said it breaches the rules, but they will let it continue for a couple of more months (until Silverstone). Pretty obvious by then RB will have wrapped the season up. Only then will they will take away their illegal bits (far too late for the other teams).

but the clawing back of points to catch a nobbled team is much more exciting.

Anything for a buck I guess. Still irks me that we can't just have a level playing field.

[bud]

I think that this is just the FIA/Benie's way of slowing Redbull down to increase the show. Much like they did with the Mass Damper when Renault where doing well

I would have said entirely the opposite. If the FiA/Bernie wanted to even things up they would have banned it as soon as they declared it was breaching the rules.

The fact is, they have said it breaches the rules, but they will let it continue for a couple of more months (until Silverstone). Pretty obvious by then RB will have wrapped the season up. Only then will they will take away their illegal bits (far too late for the other teams).

but the clawing back of points to catch a nobbled team is much more exciting.

Anything for a buck I guess. Still irks me that we can't just have a level playing field.

well the front runners
Redbull
McLaren
Ferrari
Mercedes
Renault
all use EBD. Its about wording again i dont see the engine as a moveable aero device, or the gasses it creates. I do think the wheels are a moveable aero device, i think they should ban them.

[What's Burning?]

I think that this is just the FIA/Benie's way of slowing Redbull down to increase the show. Much like they did with the Mass Damper when Renault where doing well

I would have said entirely the opposite. If the FiA/Bernie wanted to even things up they would have banned it as soon as they declared it was breaching the rules.

The fact is, they have said it breaches the rules, but they will let it continue for a couple of more months (until Silverstone). Pretty obvious by then RB will have wrapped the season up. Only then will they will take away their illegal bits (far too late for the other teams).

but the clawing back of points to catch a nobbled team is much more exciting.

Anything for a buck I guess. Still irks me that we can't just have a level playing field.

I think the field was level at least on this blown diffuser, and yet we got the results we got. I'm not against letting someone skilled enough to tilt things in their favor gain an advantage because of it. The problem isn't a level playing field, the problem is that there are numerous fields all governed by different sets of rules it would seem. I mean how is the any different from the f-duct? Yet that was allowed to remain the entire season. Changing rules mid way is not the right thing, everyone is free to exploit those rules to the best of their ability.

[spankyham]

I think that this is just the FIA/Benie's way of slowing Redbull down to increase the show. Much like they did with the Mass Damper when Renault where doing well

I would have said entirely the opposite. If the FiA/Bernie wanted to even things up they would have banned it as soon as they declared it was breaching the rules.

The fact is, they have said it breaches the rules, but they will let it continue for a couple of more months (until Silverstone). Pretty obvious by then RB will have wrapped the season up. Only then will they will take away their illegal bits (far too late for the other teams).

but the clawing back of points to catch a nobbled team is much more exciting.

Anything for a buck I guess. Still irks me that we can't just have a level playing field.

well the front runners
Redbull
McLaren
Ferrari
Mercedes
Renault
all use EBD. Its about wording again i dont see the engine as a moveable aero device, or the gasses it creates. I do think the wheels are a moveable aero device, i think they should ban them.

You put the case pretty well mate. Just a small point, EBDs themselves wont be banned until next year as the FiA do not think they breach the existing rules. It is only the overrun that will be banned under the existing rule this year. I think the FiA will use the technical directive to differentiate moveable aero devices from other moving parts. Using Bud's example of the wheels moving and effecting aeros, I'd guess they will state is that the wheels are not an aero device because that is not their purpose. The Wheels purpose is to steer transfer power. Likewise they would say the engine in normal throttle use does move but its purpose in that state is not aero. However, they will say that when the teams start generating exhaust gases from the moving engine in the overrun, it's purpose changes to be for aero effect and is therefore contravening Article 3.15.

Changing rules mid way is not the right thing, everyone is free to exploit those rules to the best of their ability.

Remember, the rules are never changed mid-season, that is an often bandied statement but its actually inaccurate. Proof, you show me a copy of either the tech or sporting regs for any year at the start and end of the year and show me one word, or even one character that was changed. You can't because the rules are not in fact changed. F-Duct is an excellent example, the FiA in fact deemed it did not break any 2010 rules and so, they wrote new rules to prevent F-Duct from 2011. The EBD as I explain above is also not illegal under the existing rules, so they will only be banned from next year after new rules are written. However, the FiA is acting over engine overrun this year, meaning it is in breach of the current rules. As I've been saying, it irks me that the FiA let this breach continue yet they act immediately against other teams who they deem have presented innovations which they deemed breach the rules (Ferrari's Barcelona gurney flap). Why is one team allowed to continue to benefit from breaching the rules?

[PartsaS]

This would make the wdc more interesting as I expect McLaren n Ferrari will match Redbulls pace and everything can happen till the end! Bring it on...

[What's Burning?]

Changing rules mid way is not the right thing, everyone is free to exploit those rules to the best of their ability.

Remember, the rules are never changed mid-season, that is an often bandied statement but its actually inaccurate. Proof, you show me a copy of either the tech or sporting regs for any year at the start and end of the year and show me one word, or even one character that was changed. You can't because the rules are not in fact changed. F-Duct is an excellent example, the FiA in fact deemed it did not break any 2010 rules and so, they wrote new rules to prevent F-Duct from 2011. The EBD as I explain above is also not illegal under the existing rules, so they will only be banned from next year after new rules are written. However, the FiA is acting over engine overrun this year, meaning it is in breach of the current rules. As I've been saying, it irks me that the FiA let this breach continue yet they act immediately against other teams who they deem have presented innovations which they deemed breach the rules (Ferrari's Barcelona gurney flap). Why is one team allowed to continue to benefit from breaching the rules?

I think we're just discussing semantics here... so yes the rule (wording) wasn't changed, it's the interpretation of it that has. Effectively the same thing. The issue I have is that it's being done mid season. There's a whole hell of a lot of gray area in that rule about what constitutes moveable aero device so why not just handle it the same way as the f-duct? This is capricious and being done to suit an agenda, not for the sake of stopping a breach/loophole/ in the rules.

Every other team would have shown up to the next race with the same Ferrari gurney flap, it's just how the sport works. I see your point about the playing field, but this issue didn't begin this year, there was overrun being used heavily last year as well, and there was no clarification of its use or ban of it like there was with the f-duct. This enforcement is simply someone's agenda.

[vlad]

It won't change anything. Vettel will keep his lead. Let's face it, he just has too much points.

[bud]

It won't change anything. Vettel will keep his lead. Let's face it, he just has too much points.

if that helps you sleep at night his lead is not insurmountable.

[vlad]

And you think Newey and the rest of the team will just sit and wait?

[bud]

And you think Newey and the rest of the team will just sit and wait?

You seem to think the rest of the field should give up with over half a season to go. A 2 and a bit race win lead and how many races to go? Plenty of time for things to change. Especially if both Ferrari and McLaren start beating Redbull and Seb starts having some P5 finishes or DNFs.