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[spankyham]

I could possibly see a driver starting nearer the back (ie, someone who hasn't participated in all the quali sessions) setting out to do a 4 stopper given the drop off rates, should a) the track conditions (ie temps and the surface itself) make it feasible and b) they have enough sets of 'new' tyres left. Consider the ~20s penalty for an extra stop compared to how much time they'd lose doing more laps on degraded tyres and i think there's some logic to be found in such a strategy - a key point to add is that this is only really possible this year due to what i think will be a much lower importance of track position. I must add that i think this won't be a common strategy to use, 2 and 3 stoppers will be.


Can someone just clarify the rules on how many tyres are available at various points during the weekend? As far as i can remember they start with 11 sets of tyres, but have to give back 3 sets after... second (?) practice, but i'm fairly sure that is incorrect.

edit - nm, found out. They essentially can have up to 7 sets of brand new tyres for qualifying and the race. Which raises another point! It's going to reward those drivers who can nail one lap qualifiers... and severly disadvantage those that can't.

Until the very recent WMSC meeting they got 11 sets for a weekend. But they have to hand back sets after each practice session. Now, they get more sets for practice (on some designated weekends) but they have to hand them back also before Q and race.

Just a slight correction, they have 6 - 3 prime and 3 option - in total, for Q and race (not 7).

[scotty]

Just a slight correction, they have 6 - 3 prime and 3 option - in total, for Q and race (not 7).

Ok. I thought that seemed odd. The wording on the official F1 site is quite bad

[What's Burning?]

It's the single biggest topic of discussion for this season, so right off the bat, it's having the intended effect. MRWhaaat?

[Jensonb]

Maybe not, but I think its because they didn't need to.

I just dont see why 4 stops would be 'ridiculous' if 3 is seen as the 'average'?

We have had races with just 1 stop, and also 3 stops in the same season with Bridgestones. With Pirellis, they are not doubting the high possibility of seeing 4 stops in a few races this year. I dont see how we're more qualified to disagree with these tyre makers???

And the scenarios for this to happen are many. During cold temperatures at the start of a race, you could start with super softs, and come in after 7 or 8 laps....and then reuse them at the end of the race which might last another 7-8 laps while others might be on splitting tyres and running seconds slower per lap. This is just ONE scenario....

It's not so much about the number of stops as it is about the quantity of new tyres. There's only six sets of tyres available on race day (Three sets of Options, Three sets of Primes). Usually, by race day, the teams will have used at least one set of Primes and at least one set of Options, which leaves - at most - four fresh sets. But even assuming all four of these sets are fresh, using all of them in the race (as a four-stopper would require) means using the least-favoured compound (Presumably the Option) at least twice, and as much as thrice (Assuming they are started on), as opposed to just once. In the more likely scenario - that there are less than four fresh sets of tyres, the problem is the fourth stop would mean taking off old tyres to put on...Old tyres.

The optimal strategy is to use the Options once, maximise their longevity without losing too much time, and use Primes for the entirety of the rest of the race. Given that the Primes will last around 25 Laps, the likelihood is you would do two stints on those, and one on Options - with the order dictated by qualifying primarily. A fourth stop would likely be for a set of Options to make a dash to the finish...It seems unlikely anyone inside the top ten would have enough fresh sets of Options to make that work. And I have my doubts about them being able to make it work on the Prime considering there's about a second a lap between them

[Hansy]

Maybe not, but I think its because they didn't need to.

I just dont see why 4 stops would be 'ridiculous' if 3 is seen as the 'average'?

We have had races with just 1 stop, and also 3 stops in the same season with Bridgestones. With Pirellis, they are not doubting the high possibility of seeing 4 stops in a few races this year. I dont see how we're more qualified to disagree with these tyre makers???

And the scenarios for this to happen are many. During cold temperatures at the start of a race, you could start with super softs, and come in after 7 or 8 laps....and then reuse them at the end of the race which might last another 7-8 laps while others might be on splitting tyres and running seconds slower per lap. This is just ONE scenario....

It's not so much about the number of stops as it is about the quantity of new tyres. There's only six sets of tyres available on race day (Three sets of Options, Three sets of Primes). Usually, by race day, the teams will have used at least one set of Primes and at least one set of Options, which leaves - at most - four fresh sets. But even assuming all four of these sets are fresh, using all of them in the race (as a four-stopper would require) means using the least-favoured compound (Presumably the Option) at least twice, and as much as thrice (Assuming they are started on), as opposed to just once. In the more likely scenario - that there are less than four fresh sets of tyres, the problem is the fourth stop would mean taking off old tyres to put on...Old tyres.

The optimal strategy is to use the Options once, maximise their longevity without losing too much time, and use Primes for the entirety of the rest of the race. Given that the Primes will last around 25 Laps, the likelihood is you would do two stints on those, and one on Options - with the order dictated by qualifying primarily. A fourth stop would likely be for a set of Options to make a dash to the finish...It seems unlikely anyone inside the top ten would have enough fresh sets of Options to make that work. And I have my doubts about them being able to make it work on the Prime considering there's about a second a lap between them

Just a correction: the schema you suggested is a 2-stop, not a 3-stop; three stints have two stops between them, so a late run with Options would require a third stop. It's not so unrealistic, it leaves a set of each type of tyre exclusively for qualifying.

[spankyham]

Maybe not, but I think its because they didn't need to.

I just dont see why 4 stops would be 'ridiculous' if 3 is seen as the 'average'?

We have had races with just 1 stop, and also 3 stops in the same season with Bridgestones. With Pirellis, they are not doubting the high possibility of seeing 4 stops in a few races this year. I dont see how we're more qualified to disagree with these tyre makers???

And the scenarios for this to happen are many. During cold temperatures at the start of a race, you could start with super softs, and come in after 7 or 8 laps....and then reuse them at the end of the race which might last another 7-8 laps while others might be on splitting tyres and running seconds slower per lap. This is just ONE scenario....

It's not so much about the number of stops as it is about the quantity of new tyres. There's only six sets of tyres available on race day (Three sets of Options, Three sets of Primes). Usually, by race day, the teams will have used at least one set of Primes and at least one set of Options, which leaves - at most - four fresh sets. But even assuming all four of these sets are fresh, using all of them in the race (as a four-stopper would require) means using the least-favoured compound (Presumably the Option) at least twice, and as much as thrice (Assuming they are started on), as opposed to just once. In the more likely scenario - that there are less than four fresh sets of tyres, the problem is the fourth stop would mean taking off old tyres to put on...Old tyres.

The optimal strategy is to use the Options once, maximise their longevity without losing too much time, and use Primes for the entirety of the rest of the race. Given that the Primes will last around 25 Laps, the likelihood is you would do two stints on those, and one on Options - with the order dictated by qualifying primarily. A fourth stop would likely be for a set of Options to make a dash to the finish...It seems unlikely anyone inside the top ten would have enough fresh sets of Options to make that work. And I have my doubts about them being able to make it work on the Prime considering there's about a second a lap between them

Just a correction: the schema you suggested is a 2-stop, not a 3-stop; three stints have two stops between them, so a late run with Options would require a third stop. It's not so unrealistic, it leaves a set of each type of tyre exclusively for qualifying.

Technically correct Hansy, but the essence of what Jensonb is saying is correct.

Sure you could "save" a set of clean options by missing a Q or running on tyres more than a second slower - but somehow I don't see teams "planning" to fail a Qualifying session

[Hansy]

Maybe not, but I think its because they didn't need to.

I just dont see why 4 stops would be 'ridiculous' if 3 is seen as the 'average'?

We have had races with just 1 stop, and also 3 stops in the same season with Bridgestones. With Pirellis, they are not doubting the high possibility of seeing 4 stops in a few races this year. I dont see how we're more qualified to disagree with these tyre makers???

And the scenarios for this to happen are many. During cold temperatures at the start of a race, you could start with super softs, and come in after 7 or 8 laps....and then reuse them at the end of the race which might last another 7-8 laps while others might be on splitting tyres and running seconds slower per lap. This is just ONE scenario....

It's not so much about the number of stops as it is about the quantity of new tyres. There's only six sets of tyres available on race day (Three sets of Options, Three sets of Primes). Usually, by race day, the teams will have used at least one set of Primes and at least one set of Options, which leaves - at most - four fresh sets. But even assuming all four of these sets are fresh, using all of them in the race (as a four-stopper would require) means using the least-favoured compound (Presumably the Option) at least twice, and as much as thrice (Assuming they are started on), as opposed to just once. In the more likely scenario - that there are less than four fresh sets of tyres, the problem is the fourth stop would mean taking off old tyres to put on...Old tyres.

The optimal strategy is to use the Options once, maximise their longevity without losing too much time, and use Primes for the entirety of the rest of the race. Given that the Primes will last around 25 Laps, the likelihood is you would do two stints on those, and one on Options - with the order dictated by qualifying primarily. A fourth stop would likely be for a set of Options to make a dash to the finish...It seems unlikely anyone inside the top ten would have enough fresh sets of Options to make that work. And I have my doubts about them being able to make it work on the Prime considering there's about a second a lap between them

Just a correction: the schema you suggested is a 2-stop, not a 3-stop; three stints have two stops between them, so a late run with Options would require a third stop. It's not so unrealistic, it leaves a set of each type of tyre exclusively for qualifying.

Technically correct Hansy, but the essence of what Jensonb is saying is correct.

Sure you could "save" a set of clean options by missing a Q or running on tyres more than a second slower - but somehow I don't see teams "planning" to fail a Qualifying session

Then how can they do a 3-stop? 3 sets of Primes and 1 set of Options?

If you're thinking of the top teams, they will use at most 1 set of options in Q2, no more than that. Then it depends on their strategy for Q3, given that whichever tyres they use, they're the same tyres they'll start the race with.
Those teams that don't do Q3 will have to use less tyres, too. Although they probably use two sets of options in Q2, they may go through Q1 only with the primes - I don't know for sure, it depends on the teams.
The worst case is for those teams that waste two sets of options in Q2 and go through Q3 - but even then, some of those teams usually "sandbag" Q3 by starting on primes, it happened several times last year.

So yeah, it's not perfectly easy to have 2 sets of option tyres available to race, but it's not impossible either, it just takes good management.

[racechick]

I think you missed the point . Is a driver in the wet not pushing his wet's to the maximum grip his package allows??

Same case with worn tires.

But the point is they cant push with these tyres even befoe theyre worn.

[spankyham]

So yeah, it's not perfectly easy to have 2 sets of option tyres available to race, but it's not impossible either, it just takes good management.

Rather than describing it as easy or not, I'd think of it in terms of it's not what you would "plan" for. Yes, things can happen outside of what you want to happen, and you react and adjust accordingly, but it's not what you want to happen.

Then how can they do a 3-stop? 3 sets of Primes and 1 set of Options?

A 3 stop strategy would most likely be, start on options and use your 3 sets of cured/new primes during the race.
The thought process would be like this.
1) use all 3 sets of options during each of the Q sessions, so you can get one super fast lap in for each session and end up as close to the front of the grid as possible.
2) the thing we know about the Pirelli's is they are quick and very grippy to begin with, but the drop off from mid-life (maybe earlier) is dramatic - remember drivers saying they were dropping over a second per lap - the tyres were surviving but their performance was really fading fast.
3) if you have a 66 lap race on a 2 stop you'd plan to stretch your options to maybe 14 laps and your primes to 26. 14-26-26 (3 sets of tyres in 2 stops)
4) on a 3 stop you run on the options maybe 10 then do 18, 19, 19 on your primes.
5) In effect you're trading your 18 slowest laps on the 2 stopper for the ~20 seconds to to the stop for the 4th set of tyres. Now, if those 18 laps (which are the 18 slowest on the oldest part of the tyres on the 2 stop strategy) were costing you 1.5 seconds then you're trading ~20 seconds (depends on track) for 18*1.5=27 seconds.
The math of the benefit of the 3 stop v 2 stop is very dependent on how hard the driver/car combination is on the specified prime/option for that circuit.
6) the more stops you've planned also, in theory, gives you more chances to benefit from a SC - but that is just a statistical thing, luck can make it work against you. However, statistically you get more chance at good luck for your tyre changes simply because you have more of them

Hope that makes at least a little sense.

[Jensonb]

I think you missed the point . Is a driver in the wet not pushing his wet's to the maximum grip his package allows??

Same case with worn tires.

But the point is they cant push with these tyres even befoe theyre worn.

You should be pushing the tyres at all times. The art of managing tyre degradation is to get pace from them and preserve their longevity.

Oh and @my screw up with the number of stops...Yeah, I just effed up.

[racechick]

I think you missed the point . Is a driver in the wet not pushing his wet's to the maximum grip his package allows??

Same case with worn tires.

But the point is they cant push with these tyres even befoe theyre worn.

You should be pushing the tyres at all times. The art of managing tyre degradation is to get pace from them and preserve their longevity.

Oh and @my screw up with the number of stops...Yeah, I just effed up.

These tyres dont work the same as the Bridgestones. You just cant drive around at the pace the car is capable of. The drivers have said so. They cant push, they're off the pace. Seems a shame to spend all that time and money developing a car and then putting something on which stops it performing. I suppose the upside is if McLarens car isnt working you wont notice.

[vaptin]

It means the teams and drivers will just have to work harder to "find "grip. Some drivers will still have better grip than others, and different cars will respond differently to different compounds.

[racechick]

A bit like asking a hundred meter finalist to tie bark on his feet and run. I guess he can find a way of running. I suppose it will make it entertaining but it feels false.

[vaptin]

A bit like asking a hundred meter finalist to tie bark on his feet and run. I guess he can find a way of running. I suppose it will make it entertaining but it feels false.

Depends on how you view f1, a 100m final is vastly simplified in comparison - the aim is to run fast. I personally think f1 is about the engineering challenge, and this provides one. It's a marathon rather than a sprint to me.

It's like how they change footballs (soccer) around, the players are expected to cope.

[CarBore]

I think you missed the point . Is a driver in the wet not pushing his wet's to the maximum grip his package allows??

Same case with worn tires.

But the point is they cant push with these tyres even befoe theyre worn.

You should be pushing the tyres at all times. The art of managing tyre degradation is to get pace from them and preserve their longevity.

Oh and @my screw up with the number of stops...Yeah, I just effed up.

These tyres dont work the same as the Bridgestones. You just cant drive around at the pace the car is capable of. The drivers have said so. They cant push, they're off the pace. Seems a shame to spend all that time and money developing a car and then putting something on which stops it performing. I suppose the upside is if McLarens car isnt working you wont notice.

The tyres are PART of the car, probably the most important. They are designed a certain way and the 'limit' at which they don't degrade at an unusable rate may be lower but that it then how fast the car should be driven in a racing situation. If a driver does a second a lap slower over a 100 ish second lap but the tyres last 50% longer and he doesn't end up with another 20sec pit stop plus loss of track position, the better car driver combination is the one who can keep them longer.

I maintain that if you are shredding your tyres like in these complaints then your entire package is being over driven by the driver. Asking too much of the tyres and then complaining they don't last long enough is not the correct way of driving.

Plenty of time last year you'd hear Martin Brundle talk about taking too much out of your tyres too soon. The more fragile Pirellis just make this more significant. Downforce and appropriate suspension design will still be rewarded here.