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[madbrad]

So, the two drivers are ordered to race each other. That's still team orders and that's against the rules!

[racechick]

So, the two drivers are ordered to race each other. That's still team orders and that's against the rules!

As I said....there are now team orders at McLaren

[Race Egg]

This is simple - IT IS EASY TO WIN A GRAND PRIX IF EVERYONE LETS YOU PAST? Even i might be able to do it (I've had a few speeding tickets but no hooning!) but where's the the fun in that?

[Peng]

Dont tell me Lewis has been faster in both qualy and the race... tell me about POINTS. Who the heck cares about being faster or not. Since when are drivers tied or not depending on their pace, they are tied or not depending on their POINTS. The teams care about THE POINTS and the gap to whoever is in front in terms of POINTS. Not friendship. POINTS.

And yet in 90% of posts about why Ferrari gave the team order to Massa to let Alonso pass the reasoning given was because Alonso was and has been faster than Massa all season, even if Massa was way behind the WDC leader at the time we were only halfway through the season so its hard to justify the decision when anything could happen in the 2nd half is my point.
People can keep claiming they made the right call but to me and i am sure many others it was a rushed decision based entirely on Alonso's whining throughout the entire race, Alonso is probably one of the best overtakers in the sport and Massa isn't stupid so i just could not see them crashing into each other if they did battle it out, also Alonso was supposed to be faster the whole race so it should have been easy for him surely?

If teams could see into the future then there would be no reason to race at all. Dont be ridiculous, they make the decisions with the situation AT HAND. They go to each race trying to maximise the results in the best way possible for the team. If 5 races later its Massa fighting closest to the leaders it will be decisions to favour Massa closing in on the pts lead. Even the situation about the gamble is not accurate. They dont gamble. They go for the possibility they understand yields the best result at the moment.

They already had the maximum result they could get by getting a 1-2 finish and again being so early in the season there was no way of knowing which of their 2 drivers would have the better chance at catching the WDC leaders even with the point difference between the drivers, to me its like playing poker and going all in with only seeing 1 of your first 2 cards because the 1 card you did see was an ace, its a silly gamble to make and you got more chance of loosing it all than you do of actually winning.

But anyway my posts were mainly aimed at the comment that Mclaren are being stupid which was clarified a bit better by Vaptin and i slightly agree with him in the way that if claiming they will never use team orders will lose them the championship it would just make them stupid.

[racechick]

This is simple - IT IS EASY TO WIN A GRAND PRIX IF EVERYONE LETS YOU PAST? Even i might be able to do it (I've had a few speeding tickets but no hooning!) but where's the the fun in that?

Well the really good drivers dont need 'letting past' tactics. But you need to learn to hoon!

[What's Burning?]

Dont tell me Lewis has been faster in both qualy and the race... tell me about POINTS. Who the heck cares about being faster or not.

I can quote from about a dozen posts of yours that Alonso was "faster" than Massa as your justification for Ferrari letting him pass. You're the flag bearer against hypocrisy in this forum F1ea... I'll give you a pass on the count that you're probably still intoxicated by today's quali results.

[spankyham]

Hey Spankyham looks like you're the dive right in and start making waves kind of guy huh? At least give yourself a proper introduction so we can all make you feel welcomed.

G'day, WB. I've been around for a while and following F1 for since the 70's. I just call it how I see it. Try to stay objective and give my sources/facts/reasons. Sometimes that'll get a reaction. I'd like to say thanks for all the PM's I've received, I guess I'm saying what quite a few people here have been too intimidated to post
Looking forward participating a bit more.

[racechick]

I hope no one feels intimidated about expressing their views. Anyone who is intimidated should contct a mod or admin about the situation. Views will always differ and people will feel passionately about their team or driver. But no-one should ever feel intimidated.

[spankyham]

Listen to what we say, pay no attention to what we do.
For me, that perfectly sums up McLaren, Lewis and Jensen's position on Team Orders.

Fact to back that up:-
1) (already played, but here's a replay to save you going back to the start of the thread)
Turkey 2010 (a few months ago)
Lewis to Team "Will Jensen pass me"
Team to Lewis "No"
2) Jensen last year when Rubens was called in for extra, unplanned, unnecessary pit stop and Jensen was handed the lead - funny he didn't quit or complain after that - but Rubens certainly did.
3) Do these words sounds familiar to anyone "I have to say a big thank you to Heikki, he was a great team-mate. He didn’t put up a huge fight and saw that I was quicker and enabled me to get past quicker. And so a big thank you to him. I was able to pull it off." In case you're a bit hazy, it's Lewis after he was gifted Heikki's position at the German GP 2008. It was immediately after two previous races where HK had to move over to let Lewis past. Remind me again how many points Lewis won the WDC by that year?

Lastly, I really do have to pick up Racechick on a bit of a naughty point he's made in a few posts:-

But how could Masa beat him on race pace when they were both asked to turn their engines down and alonso turned his back up?

You have implied that this is a "fact" from the recent WMSC hearing. Perhaps it was an innocent mistake or misreading on your behalf, but, you are quote from the section of the "Reporter" which is the "Charges" that are being laid. Charges are not facts, nor are they truths. It is simply part of the claim made by those prosecuting.
You failed to point out that Ferrari, in their submission refuted this statement - twice. And, most importantly, in the decision section, this claim or charge was not confirmed.

[Jensonb]

Listen to what we say, pay no attention to what we do.
For me, that perfectly sums up McLaren, Lewis and Jensen's position on Team Orders.

Fact to back that up:-
1) (already played, but here's a replay to save you going back to the start of the thread)
Turkey 2010 (a few months ago)
Lewis to Team "Will Jensen pass me"
Team to Lewis "No"
2) Jensen last year when Rubens was called in for extra, unplanned, unnecessary pit stop and Jensen was handed the lead - funny he didn't quit or complain after that - but Rubens certainly did.
3) Do these words sounds familiar to anyone "I have to say a big thank you to Heikki, he was a great team-mate. He didn’t put up a huge fight and saw that I was quicker and enabled me to get past quicker. And so a big thank you to him. I was able to pull it off." In case you're a bit hazy, it's Lewis after he was gifted Heikki's position at the German GP 2008. It was immediately after two previous races where HK had to move over to let Lewis past. Remind me again how many points Lewis won the WDC by that year?

Lastly, I really do have to pick up Racechick on a bit of a naughty point he's made in a few posts:-

But how could Masa beat him on race pace when they were both asked to turn their engines down and alonso turned his back up?

You have implied that this is a "fact" from the recent WMSC hearing. Perhaps it was an innocent mistake or misreading on your behalf, but, you are quote from the section of the "Reporter" which is the "Charges" that are being laid. Charges are not facts, nor are they truths. It is simply part of the claim made by those prosecuting.
You failed to point out that Ferrari, in their submission refuted this statement - twice. And, most importantly, in the decision section, this claim or charge was not confirmed.

Who in all hell is Jensen?

[bud]

The team order rule was brought in to stop teams switching positions such as we saw with Rubens and Schumi! Has Jenson or Lewis slowed down to let the other past? No!

Telling drivers to conserve fuel in this season of no refueling is not a team order! Every team and driver would be told this at some stage during every race. Using it as a defense against the blatant switch we saw from Massa and Alonso is just pathetic!

[spankyham]

Who in all hell is Jensen?

Oops, my typo, its actually Jenson Button. Sorry to you and anyone else who found it too challenging to work out who it was. He's actually a driver for McLaren in F1. Oops, better explain that F1 mean "Formula 1". Oops, better explain, that vertical symbol after the word Formula is the numeric representation for the number one. Hope that clears it up for you, let me know if you need any more help such as explaining words with more than one syllable.

[spankyham]

The team order rule was brought in to stop teams switching positions such as we saw with Rubens and Schumi! Has Jenson or Lewis slowed down to let the other past? No!

Both have benefited multiple times, and earned WDC, by being allowed to pass under team orders. Examples for Lewis in 2008 (his WDC year) England, France and Germany. Of course the absolutely golden one for Jenson (notice I got an o instead of an e there ) was where Rubens was forced to make his extra, unneeded, unwanted, not planned pit stop to let Jenson past.

Telling drivers to conserve fuel in this season of no refueling is not a team order! Every team and driver would be told this at some stage during every race. Using it as a defense against the blatant switch we saw from Massa and Alonso is just pathetic!

Sure, keep telling yourself that. I wonder why their lap times never drop when they are told to "save fuel". They can go faster and save fuel at the same time. And I wonder why McLaren have to use that line so often when they are close

Last point on this, it was contended by Ferrari in their submission to the WMSC that team orders had been used in the recent past. They gave the examples of Germany 2008 and Turkey 2010. In their "Decision" the WMSC agreed with and accepted this. Therefore, you can have your opinion, and I can have mine, but the fact is that Team Orders have been used by other teams in the past and the WMSC has verified that in their formal decision.

[Jensonb]

Who in all hell is Jensen?

Oops, my typo, its actually Jenson Button. Sorry to you and anyone else who found it too challenging to work out who it was. He's actually a driver for McLaren in F1. Oops, better explain that F1 mean "Formula 1". Oops, better explain, that vertical symbol after the word Formula is the numeric representation for the number one. Hope that clears it up for you, let me know if you need any more help such as explaining words with more than one syllable.

[nish2280]

Who in all hell is Jensen?

Oops, my typo, its actually Jenson Button. Sorry to you and anyone else who found it too challenging to work out who it was. He's actually a driver for McLaren in F1. Oops, better explain that F1 mean "Formula 1". Oops, better explain, that vertical symbol after the word Formula is the numeric representation for the number one. Hope that clears it up for you, let me know if you need any more help such as explaining words with more than one syllable.

Hey it was YOU that was nit picking. I didnt even notice it until you pointed it out!