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[vaptin]

I'll tell you, but otherwise skip my post if I'm spoiling it or something.
















Michael Schumacher

[racechick]

@ racechick: I avoid to comment on Michael Schumacher. It would be pretty useless, because we would disagree at any time.
But let me ask you this: How come Alonso and Vettel are arrogant, but Senna wasn't? What's the difference? (especially between Vettel and him, as this topic should be about Vettel)

A wise man to keep Schumacher out You are right we would not agree there. And yes we must get back to Vettel.

The question you ask is difficult, becuase the difference between arrogance and confidence is hard to put into words. Its more a feeling.I'll try. I can see how some of Senna's actions can be perceived as arrogant. But that crash with Prost had far more to it. It was about Senna's battle with Balestre(FIA). Pole position had moved to the other side of the track and Senna wanted it back where it should have been(on the advantageous side) He said at the outset if you dont move it Im going in to that corner whatever...and thats what hapened. It wasnt an arrogant petulant wheel turn because (Webber) had no right to be where Vettel wanted to be. It was a fait acompli. Had the pole position been reverted to where it should have been and still Prost got ahead you can bet your life Senna wouldnt have taken him off. Vettel assumed a right on that track when he turned in on Webber, Senna made a point.
A confident driver knows he is the best and that his skill will utimately show this (championships, team leader etc) An arrogant driver also believes he is the best but he makes assumptions based on this and makes demands based on this and will expect help to achieve his goals. He has scant regard for fellow competitiors.
Senna was a very shy man, very private and very spritual. On the day before he died he was so affected by the death of Roland Ratsenburger that Prof Sid Watkins(medical guy) asked him not to race.
To go on a date with a confident man would be a pleasure with an arrogant man it would be the opposite. The confident man would know what to say, where to go, what to suggest you eat, drink and you'd feel good. The arrogant man would have to show how he knew best, was always right, what good things he'd done. He would make you feel inferior and he wouldnt even know or care how you felt. Well now Im just rambling We dont really kn ow these guys we only have a few actions to go on..but its an indicator. People will probably never agree.

[f1ea]

Good job: damaging little girls' minds....

This little girl would make her mind herself

sure... that's what they always say.

The question you ask is difficult, becuase the difference between arrogance and confidence is hard to put into words. Its more a feeling.

a feeling = bias?

[What's Burning?]

The question you ask is difficult, becuase the difference between arrogance and confidence is hard to put into words. Its more a feeling.I'll try. I can see how some of Senna's actions can be perceived as arrogant. But that crash with Prost had far more to it. It was about Senna's battle with Balestre(FIA). Pole position had moved to the other side of the track and Senna wanted it back where it should have been(on the advantageous side) He said at the outset if you dont move it Im going in to that corner whatever...and thats what hapened. It wasnt an arrogant petulant wheel turn because (Webber) had no right to be where Vettel wanted to be. It was a fait acompli. Had the pole position been reverted to where it should have been and still Prost got ahead you can bet your life Senna wouldnt have taken him off. Vettel assumed a right on that track when he turned in on Webber, Senna made a point.
A confident driver knows he is the best and that his skill will utimately show this (championships, team leader etc) An arrogant driver also believes he is the best but he makes assumptions based on this and makes demands based on this and will expect help to achieve his goals. He has scant regard for fellow competitiors.
Senna was a very shy man, very private and very spritual. On the day before he died he was so affected by the death of Roland Ratsenburger that Prof Sid Watkins(medical guy) asked him not to race.
To go on a date with a confident man would be a pleasure with an arrogant man it would be the opposite. The confident man would know what to say, where to go, what to suggest you eat, drink and you'd feel good. The arrogant man would have to show how he knew best, was always right, what good things he'd done. He would make you feel inferior and he wouldnt even know or care how you felt. Well now Im just rambling We dont really kn ow these guys we only have a few actions to go on..but its an indicator. People will probably never agree.

This is good insight from the Venus camp RC, and I read it twice to make sure I digested it and thought enough about it before replying. I'm leaving the racing out and simply focusing on the arrogance/confidence factor of it.

The line between that arrogance and confidence is very much in the eye of the beholder and can also be influenced by external factors like power, money, charisma, hence your comment about people probably never agreeing is as accurate as we're ever going to get.

[The Immortal Dragon]

@ racechick: I avoid to comment on Michael Schumacher. It would be pretty useless, because we would disagree at any time.
But let me ask you this: How come Alonso and Vettel are arrogant, but Senna wasn't? What's the difference? (especially between Vettel and him, as this topic should be about Vettel)

A wise man to keep Schumacher out You are right we would not agree there. And yes we must get back to Vettel.

The question you ask is difficult, becuase the difference between arrogance and confidence is hard to put into words. Its more a feeling.I'll try. I can see how some of Senna's actions can be perceived as arrogant. But that crash with Prost had far more to it. It was about Senna's battle with Balestre(FIA). Pole position had moved to the other side of the track and Senna wanted it back where it should have been(on the advantageous side) He said at the outset if you dont move it Im going in to that corner whatever...and thats what hapened. It wasnt an arrogant petulant wheel turn because (Webber) had no right to be where Vettel wanted to be. It was a fait acompli. Had the pole position been reverted to where it should have been and still Prost got ahead you can bet your life Senna wouldnt have taken him off. Vettel assumed a right on that track when he turned in on Webber, Senna made a point.
A confident driver knows he is the best and that his skill will utimately show this (championships, team leader etc) An arrogant driver also believes he is the best but he makes assumptions based on this and makes demands based on this and will expect help to achieve his goals. He has scant regard for fellow competitiors.
Senna was a very shy man, very private and very spritual. On the day before he died he was so affected by the death of Roland Ratsenburger that Prof Sid Watkins(medical guy) asked him not to race.
To go on a date with a confident man would be a pleasure with an arrogant man it would be the opposite. The confident man would know what to say, where to go, what to suggest you eat, drink and you'd feel good. The arrogant man would have to show how he knew best, was always right, what good things he'd done. He would make you feel inferior and he wouldnt even know or care how you felt. Well now Im just rambling We dont really kn ow these guys we only have a few actions to go on..but its an indicator. People will probably never agree.

It's a nice answer to my question, so thank you for that.
And I do know the story of that 1990 Japanese GP (I was very little, but I watched programmes on Ayrton) as well as how he was feeling the day (and the one before) of the San Marino GP in 1994.
And I do admire Senna, I really do. For sure he was a confident man.
However, just because he was a confident man doesn't necessarily mean he never acted with arrogance during his career. He probably did, to be honest.
But I think that arrogance and confidence can be so much alike that when it is not too obvious, they depend on our personal opinion.

Moreover, you said:

An arrogant driver also believes he is the best but he makes assumptions based on this and makes demands based on this and will expect help to achieve his goals. He has scant regard for fellow competitiors.

I mean.. I can't see Vettel fitting that description.
Off-track he seems like a guy who respects his opponents just like any other. And he never really asked for help to achieve what he has achieved.
In the end it was the RBR team that decided to take the new front wing off Webber's car in order to give it to him, and it wasn't him who asked for it. (at least that's what who know, but it seems a reasonable assumption.)
And people have made his crash with Webber in Turkey a much bigger deal than what it should be. He just thought he had it and moved to get the corner from a position nearer to the optimum one. It wasn't a sing of arrogance.

[racechick]

@ racechick: I avoid to comment on Michael Schumacher. It would be pretty useless, because we would disagree at any time.
But let me ask you this: How come Alonso and Vettel are arrogant, but Senna wasn't? What's the difference? (especially between Vettel and him, as this topic should be about Vettel)

A wise man to keep Schumacher out You are right we would not agree there. And yes we must get back to Vettel.

The question you ask is difficult, becuase the difference between arrogance and confidence is hard to put into words. Its more a feeling.I'll try. I can see how some of Senna's actions can be perceived as arrogant. But that crash with Prost had far more to it. It was about Senna's battle with Balestre(FIA). Pole position had moved to the other side of the track and Senna wanted it back where it should have been(on the advantageous side) He said at the outset if you dont move it Im going in to that corner whatever...and thats what hapened. It wasnt an arrogant petulant wheel turn because (Webber) had no right to be where Vettel wanted to be. It was a fait acompli. Had the pole position been reverted to where it should have been and still Prost got ahead you can bet your life Senna wouldnt have taken him off. Vettel assumed a right on that track when he turned in on Webber, Senna made a point.
A confident driver knows he is the best and that his skill will utimately show this (championships, team leader etc) An arrogant driver also believes he is the best but he makes assumptions based on this and makes demands based on this and will expect help to achieve his goals. He has scant regard for fellow competitiors.
Senna was a very shy man, very private and very spritual. On the day before he died he was so affected by the death of Roland Ratsenburger that Prof Sid Watkins(medical guy) asked him not to race.
To go on a date with a confident man would be a pleasure with an arrogant man it would be the opposite. The confident man would know what to say, where to go, what to suggest you eat, drink and you'd feel good. The arrogant man would have to show how he knew best, was always right, what good things he'd done. He would make you feel inferior and he wouldnt even know or care how you felt. Well now Im just rambling We dont really kn ow these guys we only have a few actions to go on..but its an indicator. People will probably never agree.

It's a nice answer to my question, so thank you for that.
And I do know the story of that 1990 Japanese GP (I was very little, but I watched programmes on Ayrton) as well as how he was feeling the day (and the one before) of the San Marino GP in 1994.
And I do admire Senna, I really do. For sure he was a confident man.
However, just because he was a confident man doesn't necessarily mean he never acted with arrogance during his career. He probably did, to be honest.
But I think that arrogance and confidence can be so much alike that when it is not too obvious, they depend on our personal opinion.

Moreover, you said:

An arrogant driver also believes he is the best but he makes assumptions based on this and makes demands based on this and will expect help to achieve his goals. He has scant regard for fellow competitiors.

I mean.. I can't see Vettel fitting that description.
Off-track he seems like a guy who respects his opponents just like any other. And he never really asked for help to achieve what he has achieved.
In the end it was the RBR team that decided to take the new front wing off Webber's car in order to give it to him, and it wasn't him who asked for it. (at least that's what who know, but it seems a reasonable assumption.)
And people have made his crash with Webber in Turkey a much bigger deal than what it should be. He just thought he had it and moved to get the corner from a position nearer to the optimum one. It wasn't a sing of arrogance.

You are right. What is arrogant to one person may not be to another. It comes down to our own personalities, experiences and perceptions. I would add that i think a confident person knows he's good. an arrogant one thinks he's better than he is.
On Vettel. I believe his move on Webber could have been explained away as reactive, an action without thought(albeit a petulant one) but not necessarily an arrogant one. His looney gesture however I did find arrogant and also his subsequent inability to see any wrong in what he did. I also find his finger arrogant and cannot ever imagine Ayrton doing anything like that. The wing thing I agree was more RBR than Vettel.

[racechick]

Good job: damaging little girls' minds....

This little girl would make her mind herself

sure... that's what they always say.

The question you ask is difficult, becuase the difference between arrogance and confidence is hard to put into words. Its more a feeling.

a feeling = bias?

No its more complicated than that. And your reply to Elfinitty is arrogant

[elfinitty]

Good job: damaging little girls' minds....

This little girl would make her mind herself

sure... that's what they always say.

Actually it is

And i think we cant really learn about Vettel's or Senna's characteristics or way of behaviors by comparing them.Both the crashes were waaayy different from each other.Senna seems to be much more innocent-of course- But i like racechick's comment,she explained it very well.I also agree with What's Burning,its more in the eye of beholder.Some people can stand when others cannot.Racechick might right about the other thing,his reply to me seems a bit mocking but who doesnt mock someone else,so we should just try to enjoy thr life.

[The Immortal Dragon]

On Vettel. I believe his move on Webber could have been explained away as reactive, an action without thought(albeit a petulant one) but not necessarily an arrogant one. His looney gesture however I did find arrogant and also his subsequent inability to see any wrong in what he did. I also find his finger arrogant and cannot ever imagine Ayrton doing anything like that. The wing thing I agree was more RBR than Vettel.

Hmm.. I do think that his move on Webber was reactive, too.
And I think his gesture came from him feeling confident of having passed Webber fairly and squarely. And from pure and utter surprise.
About the post-race comments, I think neither him nor Webber admitted their own fault. And I think it's fine in their instance, because it was 50:50. A race incident, I would say. (surely if it happened to Prost and Senna, they would have never said it was their own fault!)

In Hungary I believe he completely lost his nerve. He was leading, Webber would have been behind him, Hamilton was out, Button way behind.. and something got in the way. Obviously he had no idea what he did wrong at the time, which didn't help. But I am sure he calmed down once he was the TV footage.
I personally think this last thing was due to his young age He'll learn to calm down

[f1ea]

No its more complicated than that. And your reply to Elfinitty is arrogant

Ah so its true. Girls ARE better at sensing arrogance.

Actually it is

And i think we cant really learn about Vettel's or Senna's characteristics or way of behaviors by comparing them.Both the crashes were waaayy different from each other.Senna seems to be much more innocent-of course- But i like racechick's comment,she explained it very well.I also agree with What's Burning,its more in the eye of beholder.Some people can stand when others cannot.Racechick might right about the other thing,his reply to me seems a bit mocking but who doesnt mock someone else,so we should just try to enjoy thr life.

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in any case.... Vettel is not an arrogant guy. He doesnt act like one, and certainly doesnt speak like one.
To me, he really does look like a kid having the ride of his life and stoked to be surrounded by people he feels were untouchable.

Incidents are incidents, and we debate here on endless pages and after countless slow-mo different camera angle views and still dont reach a unanimous decision. These guys get 1 split second to show their face to the world after getting their tires ripped off by another car at 200kph after making a move they felt was right.

Vettel is a nice guy.

[What's Burning?]

Here's something to illustrate how arrogance and confidence can both easily be excused or confused depending on your point of view.

Usain Bolt blows everyone out of the water at the 2008 Beijing Olympics, not only does he smash the current world record, he does it by shutting it down 10 meters from the finish line, which could have lowered the WR by another few hundredths of a second.

Arrogant; but the guy can back it up, his actions were meant to show everyone else that he could wipe the floor with them. whether that was his intent or not, clearly arrogant but when you can deliver like that a majority of the world watching at that moment probably enjoyed the arrogance.

Confident; Lindsey Jacobellis 2006 Turin Olympics Cross Board. She's 40 meters or so away from the finish line with a HUGE lead, a gold medal awaits... she decides to hot dog it and pull a trick on the last jump and grab her board just to give the fans a show. She falls and by the time she gets up is passed and has to quickly recover and finishes second for a silver medal. In the end she said Snow Boarding is fun and she was just enjoying her sport and didn't make excuses she wanted to give the fans a show but her over confidence (arrogance) cost her a gold medal.

Both of these events show how fine the line between the two can be.

[smokin]

Vettel's not arrogant or confident, or no more so than any other F1 driver anyway; he's petulant. BIG difference.

[racechick]

Yes. Petulant I think we can agree on.

[Big Azza]

Suzka 1990 Was again because the FISA leader intervined. Senna asked for Pole to be changed from the dirty side of the track to the racing line. FISA intialy agreed but Balstre (head of FISA) intervined and it was left on the dirty side of the track.

You don't know the back story your comparing Turkey 2010 to Suzka 1989 Senna was attempting an overtake on a corner he didn't just drive into his prost on the straight like vettle.

You say Senna was the driver behind, no in 1990 he had pole.

Not a chance.
Senna was surely on pole, but by the time him and Prost had reached turn 1, he was massively behind!


So what? Was this 50/50 like Suzuka '89?
No way!
This was Senna's fault, and there's no way of getting out from this!
He drove straight into Prost, with no intention whatsoever to take the corner.

That to me is wrong and a bit arrogant. I still respect Senna, mind you.


@ racechick: I avoid to comment on Michael Schumacher. It would be pretty useless, because we would disagree at any time.
But let me ask you this: How come Alonso and Vettel are arrogant, but Senna wasn't? What's the difference? (especially between Vettel and him, as this topic should be about Vettel)

In regards to Michael Schumacher - I might say the term "over-confidence" applies to him this year. Before I lose my ally in this thread, I can explain: Schumacher is used to winning, always being fast himself, and for most of his career being in the fastest car. Obviously he might have been expecting a lot more this season, but after aging a bit and being in a slower car it might take a season for him to get back into it. There is no point discrediting Schumacher this season, unless someone wants to forget what he's achieved from 1991-2006?

Did you forget? Ok here's a reminder: 91 Wins, 154 Podiums, 68 Pole Positions, 76 Fastest Laps....

And two 4th places this year is still pretty good for someone whose had a sabattical, is in a slower car, and is less fit. Watch out in Belgium. His first win was there in 1992, and he went on to win every Beligum GP he finished except in 2004, where he was 2nd. So I think he will finish third in Belgium GP 2010.

Vettel is fast, and he doesn't like it when he doesn't win. I'm a pretty quiet guy, but if I lose a game of FIFA you better leave the room or I will clobber you.... We all don't like it when we lose.

Vettel had every reason to sulk after Hungary. He would have lapped everyone in that race with his sheer pace. Yet he admitted his mistake. Fernando Alonso, might have said something different.

I have to reply to someone else's post which I will paste into this comment....

[Big Azza]

I personally cant remember that race in 08 but if you can provide evidence that Vettel indeed climbed those places by overtaking and did so by overtaking drivers in similar speed cars than i will admit that is probably the best race he has ever had, i however would imagine he did so through pitstops which i would guarantee were planned by the team and had nothing to do with Vettel.

Last season and the current season at the times he has been behind he hasn't really proven any kind of skill at overtaking except when it comes to overtaking cars which are much much slower than his, add that to the fact he cant keep his emotions in check when driving and generally starts driving like crap when something goes wrong, this to me shows he isn't a complete enough driver yet to be competing for the championship let alone winning it especially when drivers who are currently better than him haven't currently or ever been given much of a chance to win a WDC.

The fact is both red bull drivers have been blessed with the amazing piece of engineering that is the RB6 something very very few drivers will ever get in an entire career and they are throwing it away so the only way i could really complement Vettel this season would be if he was winning the championship by 100 points at this time in the season.

Funny that i seem to be bashing Vettel so much even though i like him as a driver and want him to win some WDC in the future but i still just don't think he has proven he deserves to win and i don't follow sports to see the worst team win by default.

I remember the race quite well. It's the first time I started following F1, and I subsequently joined this forum. That's the race where Hamilton had 2 punctures I recall. No one cared then because Vettel was at the back and all the focus was on Hamilton.

However, are you suggesting that Vettel overtook 13 or 14 positions while he was in Pits? I doubt that was the case. However I have no evidence except he started 19th and finished 5th. At Monaco. All I remember is the commentator calling out the names of the first 4 drivers and then he exclaims, "5th Vettel. Oh my gosh how did he get there!!!??? He started on the back row!"

The next race (Canada) he started 19th, and finished 8th. France Q13 P12, Britain Ret. Lap 0, Germany Q9 P8. (The race with the safety car). Hungary Ret. Overheating, Europe Q6 P6, Belgium Q10 P5, Italy Q1 P1 , Singapore Q6, P5. Japan Q9 P6, China Q6 P9, Brazil Q7 P4.

Who can forget his pursuit of Lewis Hamilton in Brazil that year, which handed the World Championship to Massa for 38 seconds?

What these statistics show is that Vettel driving in his first full season of Formula One, could consistently take it to the big guys, rarely dropped positions, all the while his team mate - a well-known Le Mans driver, would float 5 to 10 places behind. And he won a race too, in pretty dismal conditions, in the Torro Rosso!

One memorable overtaking maneuver happened in China 2007, here this teenager qualified 17 and finished 4th. Apparently he overtook Button brilliantly. But, no footage just him yelling at his team how "fantastic" they were.

As we can see Webber cannot overtake when he's behind also. Vettel has proven he is capable of overtaking, Brazil last year is also fresh in everyone's memory (not mine - I wasn't watching), so what does this tell you about the awesome piece of machinery he is driving. It's designed to be in front.

He could of secured two? sorry have i missed somthing is Brawn GP going to get banned and Vettle handed a championship?

Yeah, I said could, not should. He was clearly a better driver than Button last year, but what matters is who's in front at the end of the season, so congrats to Button on that one.