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[Gaz]

Massa
Bahrain '08 Qualified 2nd - Good start
France '08 Qualified 2nd - Kimi's Exhaust Broke
Spa '08 Qualified 2nd - Lewis got a 25sec Penalty

So he's won from pole position 7 times and from 2nd 3 times. A total of 10 wins.

Sebastian Vettel
Abu Dhabi '09 Qualified 2nd - Lewis had

So he's won from pole 4 times and from 2nd once. A total of 5 wins.

Neither have been spectacular at winning from behind.

Massa
Bahrain '08 Qualified 2nd - Good start/better grip off line
France '08 Qualified 2nd - Kimi's Exhaust Broke
Spa '08 Qualified 2nd - Lewis got a 25sec Penalty

Sebastian Vettel
Abu Dhabi '09 Qualified 2nd - Lewis had brake issue and retired.

[racechick]

That's why I said "potential"

I can understand where you're coming from with Massa. It seems I don't rank consistency quite as highly as some people, although I'll agree it's important, I'm quite forgiving of mistakes provided they're not too frequent. I had this discussion in the snooker thread a while back where I ranked O'Sullivan as the best player ever, despite his obvious consistency issues.

Im completely with you there, Im also forgiving of mistakes if the driver is operating on another level. Its why lewis is my favourite. Yes theres a place for consistency but give me a racer everytime. So why'd I put massa above kimi? Well its not consistency as such, he makes errors and was dreadful when he started but he's made a huge improvement and can put in some sublime races on occassion. I know Kimi can but he hasnt so much of late. Oh I dunno, thats sort of how it feels. I would certainly give it kimi over massa`in the psychology department!

[al4x]

i always thought hamilton was a good driver, and he trys, i like him more than i did a few month ago too, perhaps his and alonsos desire to beat the compettion is the route cause of the failure at mclaren? hmm,

[cap-dude]

I still think people give Massa a hard time. As people say, they should judge drivers on their last race, not their previous history i.e. 2 years ago

If you look at Massa in 2009, you can see a vast improvement, since he is coming from the field now. We seen in races like Silverstone this year, how he went from 9th to 4th. Monaco we seen him close a large gap (at least 10 seconds) to Kimi, and he would have no doubt overtaken Kimi and finished 3rd, if it weren't for Button coming between the two during the stops. Nurburgring seen a very respectable podium. China, (everyone complains how bad he can be in the wet) but Massa was up to 5th on a 1 stop, and was threatening the Brawns, before his unfortunate retirement.

Massa would've been the form man of 2009 in my opinion if it weren't for his accident. He was 5th in the championship just before the accident, and I personally believe if it weren't for that, he would have gone on to win races and possibly have come close to overtaking Webber in the championship considering Webber's run of 5 races and no points.

[Hexagram]

I still think people give Massa a hard time. As people say, they should judge drivers on their last race, not their previous history i.e. 2 years ago

If you look at Massa in 2009, you can see a vast improvement, since he is coming from the field now. We seen in races like Silverstone this year, how he went from 9th to 4th. Monaco we seen him close a large gap (at least 10 seconds) to Kimi, and he would have no doubt overtaken Kimi and finished 3rd, if it weren't for Button coming between the two during the stops. Nurburgring seen a very respectable podium. China, (everyone complains how bad he can be in the wet) but Massa was up to 5th on a 1 stop, and was threatening the Brawns, before his unfortunate retirement.

Massa would've been the form man of 2009 in my opinion if it weren't for his accident. He was 5th in the championship just before the accident, and I personally believe if it weren't for that, he would have gone on to win races and possibly have come close to overtaking Webber in the championship considering Webber's run of 5 races and no points.

I agree Massa was pretty good in that Ferrari untill his accident. That said you can't take away from Kimi his class performances. We could debate Massa may have taken some of them podiums off him but in Spa Kimi is the man.

[Big Azza]

I do respect Massa more these days - I now look past the fact that he drives for a red team.

But perhaps the fact that he had 6 race wins in one Season (Spa makes up for Hungary), and he still wasn't a champion, compared to Button's 5, and the fact that he has 11 wins in total, makes me rank him favourably.

However, on skill, I'd put him under Sebastien Vettel. Am I biased? Or is it because he will be a double world champion, at least?

[iFuel]

I'm not rating by career but by current performances given the current cars.. so I think it should be like

Top tier
1 - Hamilton
2 - Raikkonnen
3 - Vettel
4 - Massa

Very good, but could have done better
5 - Button
6 - Barrichello
7 - Webber
8 - Rosberg
9 - Alonso

Just doing their jobs
10 - Heidfeld
11 - Kubica
12 - Trulli
13 - Glock
14 - Buemi
15 - Sutil
16 - Fisichella

Underperforming
17 - Kovaleinen

Bad.. just bad...
18 - Bourdais
19 - Alguersuari
20 - Piquet
21 - Grosjean
22 - Nakajima
23 - Badoer

Cannot be rated, but promising
24 - Kobayashi

List seems to be outrageous? whats the logic behind this?
Lemme try to explain.. I cannot compare drivers in different cars.. but I can rate how well they have done on their current cars, why didn't I rate by career? Simple, some drivers have a very good career, but they are not on the top of their games anymore, so I can't rate them so high as they was previously
polemic points:
Why Hammy in 1st?
- He had a crappy car, he got results, he and his team managed to get a decent car (I think the drivers capabilities of helping engineers to improve the car has to be considered), and with a decent car, he got solid wins, props to him
Why Alonso sooooo down on the list?
- While many of you still see him as the best driver of the grid, I can't see this, Renault is not a bad team.. he won 2 WDC with them after all.. at the start of the season, Renault car wasn't good, but it wasn't crap wither (I think it was better than McLaren at least), Alonso and Renault could not improve the car properly, and the car only got worse with time.. and I can't say Alonse permformed greatly in 2008 either

ps: I did not rate Kobi as the worst driver... I just think I can't rate him properly, so I put him on a class of his own

[vaptin]

Renault didn't want to improve the car, his car got "worse" on a relative level because the oppositions got better. I thought you were comparing a drivers ability in the current car? In which case alonso's car is rubbish, yet you mark him down as a driver for that?

[iFuel]

Renault didn't want to improve the car, his car got "worse" on a relative level because the oppositions got better. I thought you were comparing a drivers ability in the current car? In which case alonso's car is rubbish, yet you mark him down as a driver for that?

Alonso is known to improve car performance, also is known to act as a leader and push the boundaries of his team... I couldn't see that on the past 2 seasons

[Gilles 27]

going with Juliet's original post, here is my ranking of the drivers who competed in last years championship based on their F1 career so far NOT just last season or any one season.

Alonso
Raikkonen
Hamilton
Vettel
Massa
Rosberg
Kubica
Webber
Barrichello
Button
Kovaleinen
Heidfeld
Trulli
Glock
Sutil
Fisichella
Liuzzi
Nakajima
Buemi
Bourdais
Piquet Jr
Badoer

Algesuari, Kobayashi, Grosjean have not completed a full season so I can't really judge them.

[vaptin]

Renault didn't want to improve the car, his car got "worse" on a relative level because the oppositions got better. I thought you were comparing a drivers ability in the current car? In which case alonso's car is rubbish, yet you mark him down as a driver for that?

Alonso is known to improve car performance, also is known to act as a leader and push the boundaries of his team... I couldn't see that on the past 2 seasons

I thought you weren't judging by their performances in 09 only?

[scotty]

Renault didn't want to improve the car, his car got "worse" on a relative level because the oppositions got better. I thought you were comparing a drivers ability in the current car? In which case alonso's car is rubbish, yet you mark him down as a driver for that?

Alonso is known to improve car performance, also is known to act as a leader and push the boundaries of his team... I couldn't see that on the past 2 seasons

Definitely saw it in '08...! And he still somehow got on the podium and got a pole this year in that Renault, which was probably the outright worst car by the end of the season.

[iFuel]

Renault didn't want to improve the car, his car got "worse" on a relative level because the oppositions got better. I thought you were comparing a drivers ability in the current car? In which case alonso's car is rubbish, yet you mark him down as a driver for that?

Alonso is known to improve car performance, also is known to act as a leader and push the boundaries of his team... I couldn't see that on the past 2 seasons

Definitely saw it in '08...! And he still somehow got on the podium and got a pole this year in that Renault, which was probably the outright worst car by the end of the season.

He had a very good team working for him solely, Alonso is a VERY good driver.. but lately he isn't near to what he was in 05, 06 and 07.. again, he is very good, but his performances aren't even close to someone who deserves to be called the current best driver on grid

[Gilles 27]

Alonso was easily the class of the field in 2008.

[Gaz]

Alonso was easily the class of the field in 2008.

in the latter half of the year definitly, But You could say the same about Lewis this year.

I think everyone agree's that himself and Lewis are two best drivers in F1.