Best battle in history?

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madbrad
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby madbrad »

LewEngBridewell wrote:
madbrad wrote:Wasn't there one between Kimi and Louise in 07 where they kept swapping the lead because they kept sliding off? I really can't remember anything anymore.


Do you not mean Spa '08, when the rain fell towards the race's end? They slid around, and swapped the lead, which was an immense battle until Kimi crashed on the run up to the bus-stop chicane.

Unfortunately, that battle is overshadowed by what happened AFTER the race. :(


Sounds kind of like it. Prolly yes. I was somehow remembering it being in Kimi's championship year. I don't consider the winner's 25 second penalty afterward much of a todo. This kind of thing does happen from time to time. Maybe it's a major happening for a drooling Louise fanboy.
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby bud »

To a fan of racing the penalty was a travesty, still pisses me off to this day! And then the nerve of the one of the stewards to joke afterwards saying how he would be popular in Italy. :thumbdown:
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby madbrad »

I don't see how that judgement was much different from all the others. Sure, all those who think he did nothing wrong will say it's a travesty, and maybe those people are right(about Lewis having not committed the infraction) but so is the case with all the other times. Each case has viewers who disagree with the decision. All these cases will always be considered travesties by the ones who disagree. There are scores upon scores of things the race stewards and the governing body have come up with that besmirch the image of the sport.
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby bud »

The fact is Lewis did give position back, there was no rule stating you had to wait a corner before attacking again, only afterwards was this rule clarified and accepted.
Also It had no affect on the outcome of the race, and given what followed Kimi also went off track gaining advantage offtrack at one point, (something he did the following year at the same track) but Kimi crashed himself out after he retook the lead again from Lewis, so the move had no affect on the outcome at all. it's justice though that it didn't affect the outcome of the championship.
Far too many times Lewis has been punished and then rules implemented after the fact to make it look proper. And it was also this case that started the call for a race driver as a steward. For it to be so clear cut no rewording or rule changes would have happened afterwards.
Last edited by bud on 15 Feb 12, 09:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby vlad »

That time it was the unfair punishment, like you said, Kimi didn't finish at all... That's why I've always been so negative to that event.
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby LewEngBridewell »

madbrad wrote:
LewEngBridewell wrote:
madbrad wrote:Wasn't there one between Kimi and Louise in 07 where they kept swapping the lead because they kept sliding off? I really can't remember anything anymore.


Do you not mean Spa '08, when the rain fell towards the race's end? They slid around, and swapped the lead, which was an immense battle until Kimi crashed on the run up to the bus-stop chicane.

Unfortunately, that battle is overshadowed by what happened AFTER the race. :(


Sounds kind of like it. Prolly yes. I was somehow remembering it being in Kimi's championship year. I don't consider the winner's 25 second penalty afterward much of a todo. This kind of thing does happen from time to time. Maybe it's a major happening for a drooling Louise fanboy.


I resent that last statement of yours. Assuming that it was aimed at me, which does come across in your post. :nono:
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby andrew »

LewEngBridewell wrote:
madbrad wrote:
LewEngBridewell wrote:
madbrad wrote:Wasn't there one between Kimi and Louise in 07 where they kept swapping the lead because they kept sliding off? I really can't remember anything anymore.


Do you not mean Spa '08, when the rain fell towards the race's end? They slid around, and swapped the lead, which was an immense battle until Kimi crashed on the run up to the bus-stop chicane.

Unfortunately, that battle is overshadowed by what happened AFTER the race. :(


Sounds kind of like it. Prolly yes. I was somehow remembering it being in Kimi's championship year. I don't consider the winner's 25 second penalty afterward much of a todo. This kind of thing does happen from time to time. Maybe it's a major happening for a drooling Louise fanboy.


I resent that last statement of yours. Assuming that it was aimed at me, which does come across in your post. :nono:


Untwist you tighty whities Lew! I think it was just a comment in general. Only a drooling Louise (Goodman?) fanboy needs to get upset. :hehe:
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby darwin dali »

Play nice now boyz :P
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby madbrad »

LewEngBridewell wrote: I resent that last statement of yours. Assuming that it was aimed at me, which does come across in your post. :nono:

I wouldn't suddenly take a jab at someone I am having a conversation with who has not said anything untoward. But yeah id did look bad. Sorry. It was not a comment about you at all. I don't know who you're a fan of or how rabid a fan you are of whichever driver you are a fan of.
What I meant was that anytime a penalty is given to a driver, his fans decry it as, at least, an incorrect judgement. You can't deny some of them are unbalanced hysterical fans of that driver. That or unbalanced hysterical haters of the driver that benefitted from the penalty. Similarly, fans of the benefitting driver, some of whom are panties wet lovers of him, argue for how the penalty was correct. In all of these cases, both sides have a bias.
But the penalty was not a travesty in the eyes of Massa fans or Ferrari fans, but they are fans of the sport too.
I think I sounded a bit like a Hammy hater. I am not. I don't particularly cheer for any driver and I have no venom for any either.
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby Big Azza »

I remember this race turned me off Formula One being only a new fan. And then I couldn't help but switch on for the next race weekend, which established me as a fan forever! :cloud9::thumbup:

The whole of 2008 really was an immense season! :thumbup:
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby madbrad »

bud wrote:The fact is Lewis did give position back, there was no rule stating you had to wait a corner before attacking again, only afterwards was this rule clarified and accepted.
Also It had no affect on the outcome of the race, and given what followed Kimi also went off track gaining advantage offtrack at one point, (something he did the following year at the same track) but Kimi crashed himself out after he retook the lead again from Lewis, so the move had no affect on the outcome at all. it's justice though that it didn't affect the outcome of the championship.
Far too many times Lewis has been punished and then rules implemented after the fact to make it look proper. And it was also this case that started the call for a race driver as a steward. For it to be so clear cut no rewording or rule changes would have happened afterwards.

I know. I wasn't disputing whether it was a good call. I was just saying, doesn't really stand out for me. I'm sure Hammy Haters or Tifosi loved it.
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby LewEngBridewell »

madbrad wrote:
LewEngBridewell wrote: I resent that last statement of yours. Assuming that it was aimed at me, which does come across in your post. :nono:

I wouldn't suddenly take a jab at someone I am having a conversation with who has not said anything untoward. But yeah id did look bad. Sorry. It was not a comment about you at all. I don't know who you're a fan of or how rabid a fan you are of whichever driver you are a fan of.
What I meant was that anytime a penalty is given to a driver, his fans decry it as, at least, an incorrect judgement. You can't deny some of them are unbalanced hysterical fans of that driver. That or unbalanced hysterical haters of the driver that benefitted from the penalty. Similarly, fans of the benefitting driver, some of whom are panties wet lovers of him, argue for how the penalty was correct. In all of these cases, both sides have a bias.
But the penalty was not a travesty in the eyes of Massa fans or Ferrari fans, but they are fans of the sport too.
I think I sounded a bit like a Hammy hater. I am not. I don't particularly cheer for any driver and I have no venom for any either.


No worries, my friend, we've never had any trouble between us before anyway! :thumbup:8-)
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby andrew »

LewEngBridewell wrote:
madbrad wrote:
LewEngBridewell wrote: I resent that last statement of yours. Assuming that it was aimed at me, which does come across in your post. :nono:

I wouldn't suddenly take a jab at someone I am having a conversation with who has not said anything untoward. But yeah id did look bad. Sorry. It was not a comment about you at all. I don't know who you're a fan of or how rabid a fan you are of whichever driver you are a fan of.
What I meant was that anytime a penalty is given to a driver, his fans decry it as, at least, an incorrect judgement. You can't deny some of them are unbalanced hysterical fans of that driver. That or unbalanced hysterical haters of the driver that benefitted from the penalty. Similarly, fans of the benefitting driver, some of whom are panties wet lovers of him, argue for how the penalty was correct. In all of these cases, both sides have a bias.
But the penalty was not a travesty in the eyes of Massa fans or Ferrari fans, but they are fans of the sport too.
I think I sounded a bit like a Hammy hater. I am not. I don't particularly cheer for any driver and I have no venom for any either.


No worries, my friend, we've never had any trouble between us before anyway! :thumbup:8-)


You can't say that again. :hehe:
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby LRW »

Well to accurately answer your question......

I believe the best battle in history was blatantly the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. Why? Well I shall tell you for why....

The Allied victory over Napoleon Bonaparte at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815 brought an end to French domination of Europe and began a period of peace on the continent that lasted for nearly half a century. Waterloo forced Napoleon into exile, ended France's legacy of greatness, which it has never regained, etched its name on the list of history's best known battles, and added a phrase to the vernacular: "Waterloo" has come to mean decisive and complete defeat.

When the French Revolution erupted in 1789, twenty-year-old Napoleon left his junior officer position in the King's artillery to support the rebellion. He remained in the military after the revolution and rapidly advanced in rank to become a brigadier general six years later. Napoleon was instrumental in suppressing a Royalist uprising in 1795, for which his reward was command of the French army in Italy.

Over the next four years, Napoleon achieved victory after victory as his and France's influence spread across Europe and into North Africa. In late 1799, he returned to Paris, where he joined an uprising against the ruling Directory. After a successful coup, Napoleon became the first consul and the country's de facto leader on November 8. Napoleon backed up these aggrandizing moves with military might and political savvy. He established the Napoleonic Code, which assured individual rights of citizens and instituted a rigid conscription system to build an even larger army. In 1800, Napoleon's army invaded Austria and negotiated a peace that expanded France's border to the Rhine River. The agreement brought a brief period of peace, but Napoleon's aggressive foreign policy and his army's offensive posturing led to war between France and Britain in 1803.

Napoleon declared himself Emperor of France in 1804 and for the next eight years achieved a succession of victories, each of which created an enemy. Downplaying the loss of much of his navy at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, Napoleon claimed that control of Europe lay on the land, not the sea. In 1812, he invaded Russia and defeated its army only to lose the campaign to the harsh winter. He lost more of his army in the extended campaign on the Spanish peninsula.

In the spring of 1813, Britain, Russia, Prussia, and Sweden allied against France while Napoleon rallied the survivors of his veteran army and added new recruits to meet the enemy coalition. Although he continued to lead his army brilliantly, the stronger coalition defeated him at Leipzig in October 1813, forcing Napoleon to withdraw to southern France. Finally, at the urging of his subordinates, Napoleon abdicated on April 1, 1814, and accepted banishment to the island of Elba near Corsica.

Napoleon did not remain in exile for long. Less than a year later, he escaped Elba and sailed to France, where for the next one hundred days he struck a trail of terror across Europe and threatened once again to dominate the continent. King Louis XVIII, whom the coalition had returned to his throne, dispatched the French army to arrest the former emperor, but they instead rallied to his side. Louis fled the country, and Napoleon again claimed the French crown on March 20. Veterans as well as new recruits swelled Napoleon's army to more than 250,000.

News of Napoleon's return reached the coalition leaders while they were meeting in Vienna. On March 17, Britain, Prussia, Austria, and Russia agreed to each provide 150,000 soldiers to assemble in Belgium for an invasion of France to begin on July 1. Other nations promised smaller support units.

Napoleon learned of the coalition plan and marched north to destroy their army before it could organize. He sent part of his army, commanded by Emmanuel de Grouchy, to attack the Prussians under Gebhard von Bluecher in order to prevent their joining the Anglo-Dutch force near Brussels. Napoleon led the rest of the army against the British and Dutch.

The French army won several minor battles as they advanced into Belgium. Although the coalition commander, the Duke of Wellington, had little time to prepare, he began assembling his army twelve miles south of Brussels, just outside the village of Waterloo. There he arrayed his defenses on high ground at Mount St. Jean to meet the northward-marching French.

By the morning of June 18, Napoleon had arrived at Mount St. Jean and deployed his army on high ground only 1300 yards from the enemy defenses. Napoleon's army of 70,000, including 15,000 cavalrymen and 246 artillery pieces, faced Wellington's allied force of about 65,000, including 12,000 cavalry and 156 guns, in a three-mile line. Both commanders sent word to their other armies to rejoin the main force.

A hard rain drenched the battlefield, causing Napoleon to delay his attack as late as possible on June 18 so that the boggy ground could dry and not impair his cavalry and artillery. After ordering a sustained artillery bombardment, Napoleon ordered a diversionary attack against the allied right flank in the west in hopes of getting Wellington to commit his reserve. The British defenders on the west flank, including the Scots and Coldstream Guards, remained on the reverse slope of the ridge during the artillery bombardment and then came forward when the French advanced.

The attack against the Allied right flank failed to force Wellington to commit his reserve, but Napoleon pressed on with his main assault against the enemy center. As the attack progressed, Napoleon spotted the rising dust of Bluecher's approaching army, which had eluded Grouchy's, closing on the battlefield. Napoleon, disdainful of British fighting ability, and overly confident of his own leadership and the abilities of his men, continued the attack in the belief that he could defeat Wellington before the Prussians joined the fight or that Grouchy would arrive in time to support the assault. Waterloo 1815

For three hours, the French and the British fought, often with bayonets. The French finally secured a commanding position at the center at La Haye Sainte, but the Allied lines held. Late in the afternoon, Bluecher arrived and seized the village of Plancenoit in Napoleon's rear, which forced the French to fall back. After a brutal battle decided by bayonets, the French forced the Prussians to withdraw. Napoleon then turned back against Wellington.

Napoleon ordered his most experienced battalions forward from their reserve position for another assault against the Allied center. The attack almost breached the Allied defenses before Wellington committed his own reserves. When the survivors of Napoleon's best battalions began to withdraw from the fight, other units joined the retreat. The Prussians, who had regrouped, attacked the French flank, sending the remainder running in disorder to the south. Napoleon's last few reserve battalions led him to the rear where he attempted, without success, to regroup his scattered army. Although defeated, the French refused to give up. When the Allies asked a French Old Guard officer to surrender, he replied, "The Guard dies, it never surrenders."

More than 26,000 French were killed or wounded and another 9,000 captured at Waterloo. Allied casualties totaled 22,000. At the end of the one-day fight, more than 45,000 men lay dead or wounded within the three-square-mile battlefield. Thousands more on both sides were killed or wounded in the campaign that led to Waterloo.

Napoleon agreed once again to abdicate on June 22, and two weeks later, the Allies returned Louis to power. Napoleon and his hundred days were over. This time, the British took no chances; they imprisoned Napoleon on remote St. Helena Island in the south Atlantic, where he died in 1821.

Even if Napoleon had somehow won the battle, he had too few friends and too many enemies to continue. He and his country were doomed before his return from Elba.

France never recovered its greatness after Waterloo. It returned territory and resumed its pre-Napoleon borders. With Napoleon banished, Britain, Russia, Prussia, and Austria maintained a balance of power that brought European peace for more than four decades--an unusually long period in a region where war was much more common than peace.

While a period of peace in itself is enough to distinguish Waterloo as an influential battle, it and Napoleon had a much more important effect on world events. While the Allies fought to replace the king of France on his throne, their leaders and individual soldiers saw and appreciated the accomplishments of a country that respected individual rights and liberties. After Waterloo, as the common people demanded a say in their way of life and government, constitutional monarchies took the place of absolute rule. Although there was post-war economic depression in some areas, the general plight of the common French citizen improved in the postwar years.

Through the passage of time, the name Waterloo has become synonymous with total defeat. Napoleon and France did indeed meet their Waterloo in southern Belgium in 1815, but while the battle brought an end to one age, it introduced another. Although the French lost, the spirit of their revolution. and individual rights spread across Europe. No kingdom or country would again be the same.
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madbrad
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Re: Best battle in history?

Postby madbrad »

What about the battle on the Plaine D'abraham? Epic stuff right there.
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