Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

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acosmichippo
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby acosmichippo »

I, for one, am not opposed to considering Prost as a better driver than Senna. They were clearly quite evenly matched, which is what made the rivalry so great. The problem is that the arguments you are putting forward don't support that claim very well.

And again, it isn't a matter of who's best. The question is who did the most for McLaren. Prost getting 6 more fastest laps while driving for McLaren doesn't amount to anything substantial, in my opinion.
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FRAFPDD
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby FRAFPDD »

acosmichippo wrote:I, for one, am not opposed to considering Prost as a better driver than Senna. They were clearly quite evenly matched, which is what made the rivalry so great. The problem is that the arguments you are putting forward don't support that claim very well.

And again, it isn't a matter of who's best. The question is who did the most for McLaren. Prost getting 6 more fastest laps while driving for McLaren doesn't amount to anything substantial, in my opinion.



:nono: , Your only problem here is my use of fastest laps as an argument, my standing doesnt revolve around fastest laps, the posts still back there if you want to review it, fastest laps was about a tenth of the whole argument. Seemingly the only part you can find fault with, fair enough, but its only one part, and a minor part at that.

The argument i put forward supports my claim very well indeed.

And i didnt bring whos better up, but again im caught red-handed by the upholders of justice on here for a crime i did not commit. I said i think Prost was better in the context of Mclaren, you know, answering the threads question, "Mclaren" (User) turned what i said into a Senna vs Prost thing.
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby acosmichippo »

I specified Fastest Lap because you had mentioned, "I personally think thats a gross dismissal of a very important fact [fastest lap] in determining the better of these two drivers." McLaren (user) addressed your other arguments very well, and I didn't feel the need to expand on them.
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby FRAFPDD »

acosmichippo wrote:I specified Fastest Lap because you had mentioned, "I personally think thats a gross dismissal of a very important fact [fastest lap] in determining the better of these two drivers." McLaren (user) addressed your other arguments very well, and I didn't feel the need to expand on them.



Well you do truly have me there mate, is it important or not, ive said both :hehe: ,

Well i think it is, but i said its minor in the hope youd address something else, but youve felt Mclaren did that well enough, funnily enough, because i think he avoided the points i made better then a politician :rofl:
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby McLaren »

FRAFPDD wrote:
McLaren wrote:
FRAFPDD wrote:My understanding is that he wanted pole changed, did the pole lap, and after the stewards and officials had accepted to change it Ballestre said no, not really as big of a conpspiracy really, it doesnt matter who you are you cant just demand the reshuffle of the grid to suit you, it was refused rather then changed.

Im suprised nobodys mentioned Japan 89, why we're talking about 90 i dont know, different cars so the comparisons arent as clear.

Whether Senna finished ahead of Prost in every race they finished is kind of eradicated by the fact that Ayrton wanted nothing less then a win, and Prost wanted nothing more then solid podium finishes. The points standings and the history of F1 from 1950 show that consistency is key. Prost had the better driving style theory. Sennas was win or bust, not to mention some of the amateurish mistakes like spinning out of first in monza, or running into the back of Martin Brundle, or pushing too hard and spinning off trying to catch Schumacher, todays drivers would be lambasted for such amateurism. Hamilton in particular.

There was a quote going round F1 circles for some time i hear that is : " If you want to win a race, Ayrtons the man, if you want to win a championship, Alains your man" It was something like that you may of heard it, but i know what ones more important.

Sennas driving style got him the fans and the legacy, Prosts got him what actually mattered.


The Senna interview, 1.50 into it http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x49nj5 ... rvie_sport

As for the mistakes Ayrton made ,which year at Monza ado you mean?.'88 when Mansell punted him off?,or the year the engine went and dropped oil causing the spin?
As for driving into Brundle,you really should look at the on board footage.It was impossible to see such were the conditions.That race Prost refused to drive ,only time I've ever seen a driver pull out of a race.
One you could of used on the other hand was Monaco '88,that was an error,ironicly going for fastest lap :wink: .An error he never made again though.

As for saying
"Whether Senna finished ahead of Prost in every race they finished is kind of eradicated by the fact that Ayrton wanted nothing less then a win"
You won't find many grand prix drivers happy to settle for 2nd place very often.I would hazard a guess that 90% of the races when both cars were running Ayrton was in the lead.No matter how you look at it that is impressive.1-2 finishes those two years Ayrton won 11-3 :clap:


Your making excuses?

If you cant see go slower, hitting another car is not an excuse, can Senna not see the rain? infact if its that easy to crash dont start the race, cue master tactician Prost who worked it out earlier then Senna did. Same result for both. Beating Senna once can be excused at a push mainly the points system, beating him in points twice in a row, hmmmm questions asked, who is the better driver. I know who my moneys on.

Then you say fastest laps dont matter, you might want to give Ayrton a call, who crashed from an unchallenged lead to set one. Poor.


Heres a B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L bit of trivia for you.........Prost NEVER won a title without a world champion teammate, Lauda, Rosberg, Senna, Hill......


Senna won one with a champion teammate, Prost, although he was outscored in points, and the other two?....................Berger.


If people did some research. I mean the bare minimum amount of research, as oppose to just being told to believe Senna is Infallible, unreachable, unchallengeable. God knows how many would follow Prost.

Its only because of his docile approach and survival that Prost is in the shadows.



Wasn't making excuses at all,its just you wouldn't of expected Brundle to be there ,going so slow (he had just spun).

As for your B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L trivia.Damon Hill wasn't a formula one world champion at the time, and wouldn't be for 4 long years.He had hardly driven a F1 car in a race let alone win a title.
How could Ayrton of won titles with team mates that are ex world champions,when there wasn't any on the grid ,such was the dominance of the pair :hehe:
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby McLaren »

FRAFPDD wrote:
acosmichippo wrote:I specified Fastest Lap because you had mentioned, "I personally think thats a gross dismissal of a very important fact [fastest lap] in determining the better of these two drivers." McLaren (user) addressed your other arguments very well, and I didn't feel the need to expand on them.



Well you do truly have me there mate, is it important or not, ive said both :hehe: ,

Well i think it is, but i said its minor in the hope youd address something else, but youve felt Mclaren did that well enough, funnily enough, because i think he avoided the points i made better then a politician :rofl:


I was thinking the same about your answers,amazing how people see things differently.Depends which side of the fence you sit I suppose :hehe:
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby FRAFPDD »

McLaren wrote:
FRAFPDD wrote:
McLaren wrote:
FRAFPDD wrote:My understanding is that he wanted pole changed, did the pole lap, and after the stewards and officials had accepted to change it Ballestre said no, not really as big of a conpspiracy really, it doesnt matter who you are you cant just demand the reshuffle of the grid to suit you, it was refused rather then changed.

Im suprised nobodys mentioned Japan 89, why we're talking about 90 i dont know, different cars so the comparisons arent as clear.

Whether Senna finished ahead of Prost in every race they finished is kind of eradicated by the fact that Ayrton wanted nothing less then a win, and Prost wanted nothing more then solid podium finishes. The points standings and the history of F1 from 1950 show that consistency is key. Prost had the better driving style theory. Sennas was win or bust, not to mention some of the amateurish mistakes like spinning out of first in monza, or running into the back of Martin Brundle, or pushing too hard and spinning off trying to catch Schumacher, todays drivers would be lambasted for such amateurism. Hamilton in particular.

There was a quote going round F1 circles for some time i hear that is : " If you want to win a race, Ayrtons the man, if you want to win a championship, Alains your man" It was something like that you may of heard it, but i know what ones more important.

Sennas driving style got him the fans and the legacy, Prosts got him what actually mattered.


The Senna interview, 1.50 into it http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x49nj5 ... rvie_sport

As for the mistakes Ayrton made ,which year at Monza ado you mean?.'88 when Mansell punted him off?,or the year the engine went and dropped oil causing the spin?
As for driving into Brundle,you really should look at the on board footage.It was impossible to see such were the conditions.That race Prost refused to drive ,only time I've ever seen a driver pull out of a race.
One you could of used on the other hand was Monaco '88,that was an error,ironicly going for fastest lap :wink: .An error he never made again though.

As for saying
"Whether Senna finished ahead of Prost in every race they finished is kind of eradicated by the fact that Ayrton wanted nothing less then a win"
You won't find many grand prix drivers happy to settle for 2nd place very often.I would hazard a guess that 90% of the races when both cars were running Ayrton was in the lead.No matter how you look at it that is impressive.1-2 finishes those two years Ayrton won 11-3 :clap:


Your making excuses?

If you cant see go slower, hitting another car is not an excuse, can Senna not see the rain? infact if its that easy to crash dont start the race, cue master tactician Prost who worked it out earlier then Senna did. Same result for both. Beating Senna once can be excused at a push mainly the points system, beating him in points twice in a row, hmmmm questions asked, who is the better driver. I know who my moneys on.

Then you say fastest laps dont matter, you might want to give Ayrton a call, who crashed from an unchallenged lead to set one. Poor.


Heres a B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L bit of trivia for you.........Prost NEVER won a title without a world champion teammate, Lauda, Rosberg, Senna, Hill......


Senna won one with a champion teammate, Prost, although he was outscored in points, and the other two?....................Berger.


If people did some research. I mean the bare minimum amount of research, as oppose to just being told to believe Senna is Infallible, unreachable, unchallengeable. God knows how many would follow Prost.

Its only because of his docile approach and survival that Prost is in the shadows.



Wasn't making excuses at all,its just you wouldn't of expected Brundle to be there ,going so slow (he had just spun).

As for your B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L trivia.Damon Hill wasn't a formula one world champion at the time, and wouldn't be for 4 long years.He had hardly driven a F1 car in a race let alone win a title.
How could Ayrton of won titles with team mates that are ex world champions,when there wasn't any on the grid ,such was the dominance of the pair :hehe:


Oh yeah and Prost had Jewish hair. Forgot that as a plus point.

I think weve come to the end of this, in terms of legacy, Senna wins, Titles, Prost wins. Im happy with my side of the bagain.
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby phonedog »

I clicked the link and it said "page not found" what the hell? never heard him race for McClaren before :D or f1 :D:D
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby killem2 »

Ok I updated it. for some reason the link was broke and I didn't know it.
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby darwin dali »

killem2 wrote:Ok I updated it. for some reason the link was broke and I didn't know it.

Took you a while :rofl:
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby LewEngBridewell »

darwin dali wrote:
killem2 wrote:Ok I updated it. for some reason the link was broke and I didn't know it.

Took you a while :rofl:


Better late than never! :thumbup:
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby killem2 »

ya ya :P.

Sorry I don't work for mclaren! They should learn to keep their websites updated lol.
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby australia99 »

Should be Prost, but it will be Senna.
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby killem2 »

DC IS 8!

He went a long way!
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Re: Mclaren's Top 50 Drivers.

Postby killem2 »

It's all done, funny enough I checked this last week, and was going to update it and they only had upto 5, they must have realized that this was taking way to long to finish haha.

Senna isn't up yet, but it's pretty obvious.