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[Spec_miata7]

Ferrari's 3.5L 65° V12.

Everyone talks about it, how it's the best sounding F1 engine. I don't know too much about Formula one or it's history. I did notice (thanks to wiki and youtube) that the 80° V12 Lamborghini made in 1989(?) for the modena team appears to have sounded exactly the same as the 1994 412 scuderia engine. That kind of high pitch wailing was rare at that time. Honda had a 3.5L V12 then but didn't sound like the ferrari. I also saw a video of this HKS F1 car. Both the HKS and the lambo v12 sound very similar to the ferrari. So what did ferrari do to produce this high pitch wailing that F1 became associated with through 1995-2005 with the v10s? And what did the F1 engine designers change, from 1995 onwards, so the engines then sounded more like the ferrari's v12s?

It's probably related to engines' firing order but more detail than just that would be appreciated! I know it's not because one motor revved much higher than the other. Because the honda revved passed 15,000rpm but didn't sound like that. It's also obviously not related to the angle of the V-block, as the ferrari was a 65° motor while the lambo was 80° and yet they sounded so much alike.

I wish some gurus would do a documentary on how this F1-wail trend started. While at it, they could also talk about how the carrera GT sounds so different from every other supercar!

Please no flames, this is my first post. Be nice to me!:-)

[The_Stig_Money]

I think it is all about the RPMS, to a much smaller extend the exhaust or turbos, and of course the period it was built. ( I cant imagine the 1950 V-12s sounds as good as the mid 90 v-12s)

the V-10s revved to 19,000 RPMs plus alot more explosions are going on inside the cyclinders.

the V-8s rev to to 18,000 RPMs but have much more computer controlled components.

I have never seen a V-12 race, but they sound cool on youtube

[Spec_miata7]

I think it is all about the RPMS, to a much smaller extend the exhaust or turbos, and of course the period it was built. ( I cant imagine the 1950 V-12s sounds as good as the mid 90 v-12s)

the V-10s revved to 19,000 RPMs plus alot more explosions are going on inside the cyclinders.

the V-8s rev to to 18,000 RPMs but have much more computer controlled components.

I have never seen a V-12 race, but they sound cool on youtube

Incorrect. As I already explained, there is little relation to RPMs. For further proof, watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv_QfhAl ... re=related

These cars don't rev past 12,000rpm, yet produce the sound I am referring to.

[stonemonkey]

I don't really know but I would guess the valve and ignition timing and the amount of fuel going into the cylinder could have an effect on the sound along with the tuning of the exaust.

[Spec_miata7]

I'm not talking about factors that might have an affect on the sound the engine produces. In that respect, the type of metal and it's density will also have an affect on the sound. I'm talking about inherent design of the engine that produces the sound and not merely a tiny factor that has an effect on it. The exhaust system, for example would be something I'd be interested in hearing about. But don't just say exhaust system. What about the exhaust system? Like the subaru boxer engines sound rumbly with any aftermarket exhaust but if unequal length headers are used, they sound like any other four cylinder engine. Please reply with good knowledge about this topic. I wouldn't pass my half baked opinion on threads that require some experience and knowledge about a topic. I'm not trying to be an A-hole, it's just that because of people with honest intentions and little knowledge, threads like these get unnecessarily long and useful information gets muddled up for people trying to find it later.

[darwin dali]

Moved to History section.

[scotty]

Lamborghini 3512 V12:

[youtube]ANNFui-7Ib0[/youtube]

Ferrari 043 V12:

[youtube]RhceuGh0D0s[/youtube]


I don't think they sounded the same at all. The Ferrari revved to nearly 16000rpm in 1994; the Lamborghini engine only went to about 13-14k. If this is not the particular engine you are talking about please post a video showing the correct car/engine.

[The_Stig_Money]

I'm talking about inherent design of the engine that produces the sound and not merely a tiny factor that has an effect on it

Camshafts and the timing designs were changed once the teams could engineer at that small a level.

Also, displacement per cyclinder times the revvs has contributed to the wailing sound. They are very busy little engines

If I knew the exact answer i would be working for a F1 team, or black mailing them with the information

[stonemonkey]

I'm not talking about factors that might have an affect on the sound the engine produces. In that respect, the type of metal and it's density will also have an affect on the sound. I'm talking about inherent design of the engine that produces the sound and not merely a tiny factor that has an effect on it. The exhaust system, for example would be something I'd be interested in hearing about. But don't just say exhaust system. What about the exhaust system? Like the subaru boxer engines sound rumbly with any aftermarket exhaust but if unequal length headers are used, they sound like any other four cylinder engine. Please reply with good knowledge about this topic. I wouldn't pass my half baked opinion on threads that require some experience and knowledge about a topic. I'm not trying to be an A-hole, it's just that because of people with honest intentions and little knowledge, threads like these get unnecessarily long and useful information gets muddled upfor people trying to find it later.

LOL. I think I see another reason too.

Anyway, sorry for replying to you, it'll not happen again.

[texasmr2]

I am waiting for verification on this but Ferrari's run a flate plane crank in their road cars which is one of the reasons they sound like they do so maybe the V12 was running a flat plane crank aswell?

http://www.projectm71.com/Cross_FlatPlane.htm

[Spec_miata7]

I don't think they sounded the same at all. The Ferrari revved to nearly 16000rpm in 1994; the Lamborghini engine only went to about 13-14k. If this is not the particular engine you are talking about please post a video showing the correct car/engine.

Please listen to this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q9QGhLGf0M

Also, as I stated in my earlier post, the Superleague cars don't run past 12K rpm and yet produce the wailing sound even as low as 10, 11k.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv_QfhAl ... re=related

Of course the relation to RPMs is once an engine inherently is capable of produce this sound, the higher it revs, the more high pitch the sound will get. But as I said, the 3.5L Honda V12 revved close to 16K as well but did not produce this sound.


@stonemonkey, thanks for understanding!

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

I am waiting for verification on this but Ferrari's run a flate plane crank in their road cars which is one of the reasons they sound like they do so maybe the V12 was running a flat plane crank aswell?

http://www.projectm71.com/Cross_FlatPlane.htm

Yes, the Ferrari flat-12s are 180° Vs, not boxers. Unless memory fails me, Ferrari have never built a boxer engine.

Cars sound the way they do because of their national character. The engines in Swedish cars, for instance, sound like chattering teeth. The Americans invented the Big Mac so their most powerful engines all sound like a Chicago slaughterhouse. Engines in French cars all sound like a wheel of camembert being dropped on a whoopee cushion. The English invented the steam locomotive so English cars sound like a tea kettle on the boil. The Germans gave us the Blitzkrieg so their engines all sound like 10,000 jackboots slapping against the cobbles of the Champs-Élysées. And the Italians invented opera so their most powerful engines sing like Enrico Caruso.

[darwin dali]

I am waiting for verification on this but Ferrari's run a flate plane crank in their road cars which is one of the reasons they sound like they do so maybe the V12 was running a flat plane crank aswell?

http://www.projectm71.com/Cross_FlatPlane.htm

Yes, the Ferrari flat-12s are 180° Vs, not boxers. Unless memory fails me, Ferrari have never built a boxer engine.

Cars sound the way they do because of their national character. The engines in Swedish cars, for instance, sound like chattering teeth. The Americans invented the Big Mac so their most powerful engines all sound like a Chicago slaughterhouse. Engines in French cars all sound like a wheel of camembert being dropped on a whoopee cushion. English cars sound like a tea kettle on the boil. The Germans gave us the Blitzkrieg so their engines all sound like 10,000 jackboots slapping against the cobbles of the Champs-Élysées. And the Italians invented opera so their most powerful engines sing like Enrico Caruso.

Now what about the British cars? And the Russian cars? Spanish cars? Japanese and Indian, Korean? Aussie? I think Brazil also builds some cars... And Skoda?

[FRAFPDD]

I am waiting for verification on this but Ferrari's run a flate plane crank in their road cars which is one of the reasons they sound like they do so maybe the V12 was running a flat plane crank aswell?

http://www.projectm71.com/Cross_FlatPlane.htm

Yes, the Ferrari flat-12s are 180° Vs, not boxers. Unless memory fails me, Ferrari have never built a boxer engine.

Cars sound the way they do because of their national character. The engines in Swedish cars, for instance, sound like chattering teeth. The Americans invented the Big Mac so their most powerful engines all sound like a Chicago slaughterhouse. Engines in French cars all sound like a wheel of camembert being dropped on a whoopee cushion. The English invented the steam locomotive so English cars sound like a tea kettle on the boil. The Germans gave us the Blitzkrieg so their engines all sound like 10,000 jackboots slapping against the cobbles of the Champs-Élysées. And the Italians invented opera so their most powerful engines sing like Enrico Caruso.

LOL German GAVE us the blitzhreig, cheers germany!

[McLaren]

Ferrari's 3.5L 65° V12.

Everyone talks about it, how it's the best sounding F1 engine. I don't know too much about Formula one or it's history. I did notice (thanks to wiki and youtube) that the 80° V12 Lamborghini made in 1989(?) for the modena team appears to have sounded exactly the same as the 1994 412 scuderia engine. That kind of high pitch wailing was rare at that time. Honda had a 3.5L V12 then but didn't sound like the ferrari. I also saw a video of this HKS F1 car. Both the HKS and the lambo v12 sound very similar to the ferrari. So what did ferrari do to produce this high pitch wailing that F1 became associated with through 1995-2005 with the v10s? And what did the F1 engine designers change, from 1995 onwards, so the engines then sounded more like the ferrari's v12s?

It's probably related to engines' firing order but more detail than just that would be appreciated! I know it's not because one motor revved much higher than the other. Because the honda revved passed 15,000rpm but didn't sound like that. It's also obviously not related to the angle of the V-block, as the ferrari was a 65° motor while the lambo was 80° and yet they sounded so much alike.

I wish some gurus would do a documentary on how this F1-wail trend started. While at it, they could also talk about how the carrera GT sounds so different from every other supercar!

Please no flames, this is my first post. Be nice to me!:-)

Sorry couldn't be bothered to read any reply's after this before responding.Well 1989 the first year i went to a grand prix.I must say the Ferrari always sounded the most perfect note of all,McLaren 2nd and last of all the Lamboghini, sounded the worst of all.the lambo always did sound pretty rough to me infact it was the worst on the grid.Back then quali was over two days and a car passed you every now and then but you knew when it was a Lambo...shocking