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By acosmichippo
#253701
if Alonso hadn't mistakenly bashed into Hamilton in Malaysia and had to pit nobody would be questioning his ability as he would currently be comfortably ahead of Massa, as it is he followed that with a very average performance in China (possibly due to the hurried new part testing in practice leaving him without a decent setup), which maybe makes things seem a little worse than they really are.


You can't just say "if" like that and come to any logical conclusion. Every driver has their "if" moments. The fact is he made a mistake, and it's a direct reflection on his driving skill. I could easily say "if" Hamilton hadn't destroyed a set of options in Malaysia's Q3, he would have finished in a much better position. Or "if" Vettel hadn't made such a poor start in China, he'd have finished first again. But I won't claim either is valid, because you have to judge drivers with the mistakes they make - not in some fantasy where no one makes mistakes.

That being said, it is way too early in the season to make any judgements on ANY driver's progress (or regress). There has been too much chaos with the new tires, DRS, KERS, and other developments (like ferrari's wind tunnel issues).
User avatar
By F1er
#253717
Lewis is a better racer... Vettel is a better driver.

What I mean by this is that Lewis can wring the most out of a car. Take chances and most of the time those chances pay off. He can make a car do amazing things and pass people you wouldn't think he could.

Vettel is a better driver in that he can get a perfect lap out of the car on command. Vettel is able to be pinpoint perfect during a qualifying lap and also pull out really quick laps in the race when needed. His racecraft needs some work and I fear he won't hone this skill until he has a chance to run in the middle of the pack some more.


So Vettel is an one lap specialist,so he is Jarno Trulli in an RB-6/7.
By Peng
#253718
Or "if" Vettel hadn't made such a poor start in China, he'd have finished first again.


You mean if Vettel hadn't made such a poor decision on tyres right? even if he had been in 1st place during those 1st pitstops he would have been overtaken by rosberg due to the undercut and he would have still made the poor choice of staying out and going for a 2 stop instead of 3 which is what cost him 1st place.
He lost 1st place when Mclaren decided on a 3 stop strategy it really had nothing to do with the start or even the 1st pitstop, the tyre undercut is just so huge currently with the Pirelli tyres that he was actually quite lucky he managed to hold onto 2nd and showed just how much race pace that car has.
By What's Burning?
#253719
F1 is not Cycling where everyone has the same bike,if it was Lewis would dominate everyone,including Vettel :whip:


Everyone doesn't have the same bike. The more affluent teams can customize components, and they tailor fit the bike geometry for each individual rider. There are even special bikes built just for one specific event. I think what you're trying to say is that the difference a bike can make to a Pro Tour cyclist is considerably smaller than the difference a can makes to an F1 driver.
User avatar
By F1er
#253721
F1 is not Cycling where everyone has the same bike,if it was Lewis would dominate everyone,including Vettel :whip:


Everyone doesn't have the same bike. The more affluent teams can customize components, and they tailor fit the bike geometry for each individual rider. There are even special bikes built just for one specific event. I think what you're trying to say is that the difference a bike can make to a Pro Tour cyclist is considerably smaller than the difference a can makes to an F1 driver.


I know, I've been an avid cycling fan for 20 years.
The difference is not considerably smaller,it's immensely huge! It's 99.9% rider .1% bike! F1 is the other way around,not in the exact numbers.
User avatar
By darwin dali
#253725
I think what you're trying to say is that the difference a bike can make to a Pro Tour cyclist is considerably smaller than the difference a can makes to an F1 driver.

I wonder which can you're alluding to: The Red Bull can? :P
User avatar
By F1er
#253726
I think what you're trying to say is that the difference a bike can make to a Pro Tour cyclist is considerably smaller than the difference a can makes to an F1 driver.

I wonder which can you're alluding to: The Red Bull can? :P

:hehe: good catch
By Besson
#253734
if Alonso hadn't mistakenly bashed into Hamilton in Malaysia and had to pit nobody would be questioning his ability as he would currently be comfortably ahead of Massa, as it is he followed that with a very average performance in China (possibly due to the hurried new part testing in practice leaving him without a decent setup), which maybe makes things seem a little worse than they really are.


You can't just say "if" like that and come to any logical conclusion. Every driver has their "if" moments. The fact is he made a mistake, and it's a direct reflection on his driving skill. I could easily say "if" Hamilton hadn't destroyed a set of options in Malaysia's Q3, he would have finished in a much better position. Or "if" Vettel hadn't made such a poor start in China, he'd have finished first again. But I won't claim either is valid, because you have to judge drivers with the mistakes they make - not in some fantasy where no one makes mistakes.
all those claims are valid in terms of wether a driver has lost skill or pace. Some are calling Hamilton 'TDG' after his china performance but he's still underperforming from time to time, Malaysia specifically. Alonso underperformed in China and we've almost had three weeks to focus on that and thats when the over the top criticism seeps in.

That being said, it is way too early in the season to make any judgements on ANY driver's progress (or regress). There has been too much chaos with the new tires, DRS, KERS, and other developments (like ferrari's wind tunnel issues).
agreed, by the end of the season if somebody should have done better than they did then that is when we can know
By What's Burning?
#253735
I think what you're trying to say is that the difference a bike can make to a Pro Tour cyclist is considerably smaller than the difference a can makes to an F1 driver.

I wonder which can you're alluding to: The Red Bull can? :P


Talk about sub...sub...subliminal.
User avatar
By acosmichippo
#253744
Or "if" Vettel hadn't made such a poor start in China, he'd have finished first again.


You mean if Vettel hadn't made such a poor decision on tyres right? even if he had been in 1st place during those 1st pitstops he would have been overtaken by rosberg due to the undercut and he would have still made the poor choice of staying out and going for a 2 stop instead of 3 which is what cost him 1st place.
He lost 1st place when Mclaren decided on a 3 stop strategy it really had nothing to do with the start or even the 1st pitstop, the tyre undercut is just so huge currently with the Pirelli tyres that he was actually quite lucky he managed to hold onto 2nd and showed just how much race pace that car has.


no... I'm pretty sure Red Bull only decided to put Seb on a 2-stop because he got stuck behind Lewis and Jenson. They thought it was their best shot at leap-frogging them. The idea was if he hadn't had such a por start, he'd have done a 3-stop and finished first.

But, it's all hypothetical and not really worth arguing about. That was my whole point.
User avatar
By darwin dali
#253746
I think what you're trying to say is that the difference a bike can make to a Pro Tour cyclist is considerably smaller than the difference a can makes to an F1 driver.

I wonder which can you're alluding to: The Red Bull can? :P


Talk about sub...sub...subliminal.

[youtube]5lMMdUywFo4&feature=related[/youtube]
By Peng
#253797
no... I'm pretty sure Red Bull only decided to put Seb on a 2-stop because he got stuck behind Lewis and Jenson. They thought it was their best shot at leap-frogging them. The idea was if he hadn't had such a por start, he'd have done a 3-stop and finished first.

But, it's all hypothetical and not really worth arguing about. That was my whole point.


Considering Vettel's 1st pitstop was at exactly the same time as the Mclarens and he came out of that pitstop infront of both the Mclaren drivers i can not for the life of me understand how what you just said made any sense.

The only driver ahead of him after his 1st pitstop was Rosberg who had undercut him because of the tyres and that was the point in which the Mclarens made the correct choice and RBR made the wrong choice (atleast for Vettel).

It really had nothing to do with the start, he could have quite easily dropped to 10th place at the start and it wouldn't have stopped him finishing on the podium maybe even 1st if he had gone with a 3 stopper.
User avatar
By billindenver
#253921
no... I'm pretty sure Red Bull only decided to put Seb on a 2-stop because he got stuck behind Lewis and Jenson. They thought it was their best shot at leap-frogging them. The idea was if he hadn't had such a por start, he'd have done a 3-stop and finished first.

But, it's all hypothetical and not really worth arguing about. That was my whole point.


Considering Vettel's 1st pitstop was at exactly the same time as the Mclarens and he came out of that pitstop infront of both the Mclaren drivers i can not for the life of me understand how what you just said made any sense.

The only driver ahead of him after his 1st pitstop was Rosberg who had undercut him because of the tyres and that was the point in which the Mclarens made the correct choice and RBR made the wrong choice (atleast for Vettel).

It really had nothing to do with the start, he could have quite easily dropped to 10th place at the start and it wouldn't have stopped him finishing on the podium maybe even 1st if he had gone with a 3 stopper.



Strategy bit Vettel on that race. The question is was it his call or the teams? Either way, it was good to see him off the top step. The thought of a schumacher/red car type of season was really beginning to worry me. Winning is good....dominance is bad...at least in my mind. I suppose Vettel might disagree, however.
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