Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Yes - The facts dont lie
2
29%
No - Despite the facts, I just feel someone else was better and I can even post who and why
4
57%
Who cares about facts, I will keep finding other reasons to regard him as a pariah
1
14%
 
Total votes: 7

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Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

The Porsche Lounge is the natural stage to highlight the achievements of Ron Dennis, where his deeds can be appreciated without the recent denigration provoked by segments of the media and lapped up by those unwilling to look at the big picture without pedantic nit picking and the same stuff Lewis attracts from certain quarters. Namely the old pattern of 'He is bad, and no matter what facts counter every single one of my reasons for believing this I will keep finding another strawman instead because I just know hes bad'

However I felt it only fair on Ron to present this notion to the public as a poll

Lots of reminders of who we are talking about in this picture

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And what a big picture it is. Lets start with the stats and facts - the most successful ever and the biggest winner

In 28 years Ron has produced backed and employed drivers to 11 World champions - therefore Ron has achieved the aim of F1 40% of the opportunities he has had - 40%. He has won 40 out of a 100 opportunities. This is a born winner. To put it in perspective the vast majority of other TP/owners/gragistas backing drivers and providing them with cars have not even approached half this level.
Enzo Ferrari produced 9 WDCs in his 38 years - 23% - barely half as successful as Ron,
Frank Williams produced 7 WDCs in 35 years - 20%
Colin Chapman produced 6 WDCS in 24 years - 25%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Drivers%27_Champions#By_constructor

As far as the WCC goes, again he is the biggest winner
Enzo - 21%
Frank - 25%
Ron - 28%

I have decided against looking at the fatalities per TP as that would be pointless but suffice to say Enzo was least successful of these 3 yet had the highest rate

And then we can move from the quantitative towards the qualitative. The best F1 drivers have driven for McLaren. Its like a role call of the greatest, Senna, Prost, Hunt, Lauda, Hamilton are all Ron drivers.

The deals Ron has cut have been way bolder and more exciting and groundbreaking than any other

He brought Porsche in and got Tag to fund it in return for naming rights, and even today TAG is still living off that association.
He swiped Honda
He got an exclusive 20 yr deal with the best engine maker of the era
He was big enough to reemploy the best driver available - one that cost him 100mill and almost his firm 7 years before

I will add to this later, but it would be good to discover the consensus opinion based on these facts, without the knee jerk memory loss by supposed F1 fans.
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

I knew there would be at least one for the third option. Thats good honesty :thumbup:
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by Hammer278 »

My respect for RD has fallen many notches after this new announcement. For both drivers to be confirmed, RD has gone back on 2 big statements he made back in the past. With Alonso, there are no words....he clearly backed Lewis at the time and kept affirming to sticking with the right choice. With JB....his famous words "Jenson is not a McLaren driver" when looking for a replacement for Kimi.

And now this latest trash:

Dennis said he had mellowed as a person, which would ease the relationship as well as there being less tension between the two drivers this time.

"I am very tough on myself and that toughness and aggression that I focus on myself is always a good catalyst to a balanced approach to life. I've mellowed quite a bit over the last two years and been much more inclusive, which is a good strategy to have to deal with the challenge of succession in the company.

"But if you go back to that period and you look at the chemistry we had with this young guy Lewis Hamilton, understandably perceived by many as the chosen one, but also someone who had immaturity. Really, if you're going on who struck the first blow, I would say that Lewis had his role to play in starting this process that then escalated.

"By and large those challenges you have between drivers - and I had them previously with Alain and Ayrton - I've always been able to manage to defuse. But this one got away from us and I look back on my contribution to that with exactly the same emotion as Fernando, which is that you regret the mistakes you've made in life. Sometimes you can't change what's happened and I probably could have done things better.

"The reality is that you look back on the mistakes, and if you are honest with yourself, you accept them and tend not to repeat them. You then put yourself in a position that you overcompensate. I don't anticipate any issues between Fernando and me."


_______________________________________

Really now...stamping on Lewis to help mend the bridge with the guy who blackmailed the team of the WCC and 100 mill. I thought RD was a guy of principles and a backbone. I get the desire to win at whatever cost, but even this desire has to have a line which should not be crossed - putting to shame all his 'principals' and talk in 2007. Makes it seem like the guy can never be counted on anything he says ever again.

A good Bernie Ecclestone replacement I might add.
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by The Second Coming »

Hammer278 wrote:My respect for RD has fallen many notches after this new announcement. For both drivers to be confirmed, RD has gone back on 2 big statements he made back in the past. With Alonso, there are no words....he clearly backed Lewis at the time and kept affirming to sticking with the right choice. With JB....his famous words "Jenson is not a McLaren driver" when looking for a replacement for Kimi.

And now this latest trash:

Dennis said he had mellowed as a person, which would ease the relationship as well as there being less tension between the two drivers this time.

"I am very tough on myself and that toughness and aggression that I focus on myself is always a good catalyst to a balanced approach to life. I've mellowed quite a bit over the last two years and been much more inclusive, which is a good strategy to have to deal with the challenge of succession in the company.

"But if you go back to that period and you look at the chemistry we had with this young guy Lewis Hamilton, understandably perceived by many as the chosen one, but also someone who had immaturity. Really, if you're going on who struck the first blow, I would say that Lewis had his role to play in starting this process that then escalated.

"By and large those challenges you have between drivers - and I had them previously with Alain and Ayrton - I've always been able to manage to defuse. But this one got away from us and I look back on my contribution to that with exactly the same emotion as Fernando, which is that you regret the mistakes you've made in life. Sometimes you can't change what's happened and I probably could have done things better.

"The reality is that you look back on the mistakes, and if you are honest with yourself, you accept them and tend not to repeat them. You then put yourself in a position that you overcompensate. I don't anticipate any issues between Fernando and me."


_______________________________________

Really now...stamping on Lewis to help mend the bridge with the guy who blackmailed the team of the WCC and 100 mill. I thought RD was a guy of principles and a backbone. I get the desire to win at whatever cost, but even this desire has to have a line which should not be crossed - putting to shame all his 'principals' and talk in 2007. Makes it seem like the guy can never be counted on anything he says ever again.

A good Bernie Ecclestone replacement I might add.


Oh dear...!
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by racechick »

Wasn't part of the deal of Alonso signing that he wouldn't have to deal with Ron?
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

Anyone who really thinks this is as straightforward as it sounds in the media reports etc could be forgetting the underlying context of Rons massive falling out with mansour and the Bharainis and his reinstatement as top dog by guys who by all accounts bitterly dislike him still and want out.

This is why s many dislike Ron, because he will do absolutely anything, say anything he needs to as part of whatever path or scheme he is on. - Its all business - If he had got lewis back you can bet he would be saying something about Alonso. Not lies etc but very carefully worded stuff that gets the job done.

Everyone seems to forget theres been a long deadlock on the board and therefore its likely Button and/or Alonso are not even Rons choice, Honda are paying for Alonso and we heard before that not landing 1 of the top 3 was a deal breaker for Honda - we know Ron offered them all name your price deals after whisking then in by helicopter

Like I said in the other thread, Button is there on very stringent targets to keep Mags out
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by Hammer278 »

I get his qualities as a businessman and a very savvy political player, but I can't respect someone so cut throat. I guess this is what makes a top notch businessman, but if I wanted to emulate a personality at this level I'd choose Brawn. Someone who obviously has a much smaller history than RD, also cut throat in his own way but in a more mellow yet ruthlessly efficient manner.

I'd think given RDs history and influence in building something great from ground up, he has a right to go back on a few of his words, but it's tough as a fan to forget what he's said before and the actions being implemented currently. Lewis as an example, was his protege, delivered something he waited a decade for, and now he's reunited with the team's worst enemy and at the same time stamping on a guy (to further his current cause) who delivered something the very next year after his team almost crumbled.

A bit too much for me to swallow.
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

Hamms, he wanted Lewis back before Alonso. also if you read between the lines of what he says about 2007, he leaves room to understand that Lewis was the chosen one but was too inexperienced at F1 politics to not rub Alonsos face in it whilst whipping him. Lets remeber that no matter what Ron says now he was the one who refused to call Lewis off. So all hes saying is 'we humiliated you, but it was just lewis being young, we werent in the pub after laughing at you, honest'

Remember that Alonso was physically kicking doors in with frustration and even demanded Ron to underfuel Lewis car for the race because he wanted to save face by beating lewis on track - thats the level of distress he had
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by What's Burning? »

I don't know enough about F1 history to throw the "best" term around loosely. Ron certainly has a history and a style and in many ways is just a divisive a figure in the sport as some drivers. You'd have to separate and define the TP role as IMO there is too much business to cloud the waters when answering the question.

We've got brilliant move and we've got boneheaded moves on both sides of the fence when it comes to this one.
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by Jabberwocky »

To be fair any F1 team owner who is a self made man has to be respected
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

Even EJ jabs? :yikes:

jus jokin
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by Jabberwocky »

Yes :-)

Even that old bloke who used to own Brabham
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

What's Burning? wrote:I don't know enough about F1 history to throw the "best" term around loosely. Ron certainly has a history and a style and in many ways is just a divisive a figure in the sport as some drivers. You'd have to separate and define the TP role as IMO there is too much business to cloud the waters when answering the question.

We've got brilliant move and we've got boneheaded moves on both sides of the fence when it comes to this one.


What amazes me is that, when it finally looked like his enemies had chopped his legs off and forced him out of F1 and the team, because he had pushed his bravery with handling drivers too far and backed Lewis in the face of the establishment , and after he had told Merc hed rather be independent than selling out - after which Merc proceeded to strip his team (maybe with a touch of payback for the one sidedness of the long partnership) he creates a new class in the UK car industry, and then comes back to F1 and brings a solution more likely to challenge Merc than the teams who had been favoured by the the establishment almost as much as he had been unfavoured over the years - this is almost like fiction

If McLaren beat Ferrari and RBr in the next year or 2, it wil have to go down as the biggest comeback. Especially against Ferrari who gained so much at his expense due to the sleaze and corruption of the Mosely era

Lets see what happens with Alonso, I most definitely would never have allowed him back, or kept Button on and all the manlove with the blackmailer is sickening to see, but lets see what its all about, Santander, and some other big sponsors and Honda, will it be worth it or will Alonso find videos of himself in DDs dungeon in the papers :hehe:
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by racechick »

I think the only reason Ron took Alonso and Button is because he wasn't in complete control, and so he makes the best of it and talks the talk ( Cmon guys, Alonso wasn't that bad, it was all the fault of that Rookie Lewis) Honda wanted Alonso, he's the second best driver on the grid and it signals intent, so Ron swallows his pride and plays ball, after all, Honda are footing the bill. Jenson will bring home the minor points and has been told not to make waves. So Ron sits tight since he isn't expecting to be at the pointy end just yet. When he is at the pointy end he will have control and can choose his drivers. And he will likely want a good qualifier on the books , a stunning rookie and a champioship winner. In the meantime we can enjoy the intra politics a la Mclaren.
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Re: Ron Dennis - The best TP in history?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

Yes RC, I reckon we are gonna see some real dramas through the season after the Merc boys have finished the race and we are watching to see the mid grid still battling

And Ron, Alonso and Button in one place??? talking about lining ones ducks up

the 3 biggest drama queens in F1 combined with an engine that didnt even manage a lap on a filming day with an engine maker who got screwed last time in F1, plus a simmering 100 mill blood feud, some angry Arabian sheiks and no doubt some bitter Maranelo based hitmen

Why, it could just be the gift that keeps giving the whole season and beyond :thumbup:
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