Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Did Nicos quali success cost him the WDC?

Nico knowingly ignored race day in favour of quali glory
1
11%
Nico fell for the bait of Saturday glory thinking he was getting one over on Lewis
6
67%
Nah, drivers dont think like this - its just coincidence - Lewis and Toto were lying when they said his car was setup for race
0
No votes
Not another fricken poll, gimme a break my head hurts from the last one
2
22%
 
Total votes: 9

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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by What's Burning? »

LH44 wrote:Jenson looks to be a better racer than Rosberg but quali wouldn't have been as close as it was with Nico, which would've left him a mountain to climb on race days. People forget how bad Jenson was in 2012 because the useless TP focused development on helping him overcome his issues rather than the championship. Toto and Nikki know what's up though. I don't think they would've allowed Mercedes to become as cliquey as McLaren was under Whitmarsh. It's easy to see how attentive and professional the McLaren garage has become since Ron took over. No silly mistakes and PR bullpoo. Magnussen has been given a fair crack and no one destroyed his confidence by hanging him out to dry in public when he started getting post race penalties for hard racing. Everything, including Alonso's imminent arrival, has been kept behind closed doors and that's what McLaren is all about.


Clearly Button has bested Mags over the season. Mags is full of little on track mistakes that are difficult to explain away which Jenson won't make. Can't say that McLaren haven't worked with him and yet I've no skin in the game as to which driver they'll keep for next year. I think McLaren even though they struggled this year, felt a lot more of a cohesive team than the embarrassment that was 2012 which was underscored in the 2013 results.

The I want to vomit point was Whitmarsh celebrating a Button fourth place finish when Lewis had won a race. Imagine if Ron did that today with Mags how the Button supporters would react?

I think we're always going to have drivers with better qualifying skills than race pace and vice versa. Vettel seemed to be that way with his one lap mastery and then Ricciardo shows up. Poles matter when in circuits that are not overtake friendly and mattered more when the cars were extremely twitchy when following. This year we saw a big step away from pole centric regulations.
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

We were told for long enough that the new regs meant F1 was no longer about sheer pace but about a lot more thinking and planning and strategy

When before our own eyes the fastest one lap drivers suddenly become uninterested in poles and fastest laps and suddenly show a bigger delta in race trim over others, do we say 'ah, F1 is changing before our eyes and adapting to this new era' or do we say 'quali is the place to show your mental strength and the Seb tactic of pole to flag of the last era must be the target lest we are seeing a lack of mental strength and cerebralism'

Mags is not a Lewis standard McLaren driver, but neither is Button, therefore I think we will see Alonso and Van Doorne as team mates next year with Mags as the test driver.

Lewis was on the podium in his first 8 races as a rookie, he was as fast and sometimes faster than his 2 x WDC teammate. Button is not a Lewis replacement so he is history, Can Mags be next year? or Can Stoifell be better?

When Lewis left McLaren a monumental mistake was made thinking he could be replaced by Button or Perez, Ron is back repairing these mistakes, why on earth would Button even imagine he would be kept on. In his second season he went backwards and was whipped by his teammate fisi who was not an Alonso, in Lewis; second year he won the WDC, the only driver that compares is the driver they are breaking the ground to sign, Button is not really fit to be a McLaren test driver - lets be honest
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by LH44 »

Button has outqualified Magnussen over the season and I'm starting to come round the idea of retaining him. There are plenty of Magnussens in GP2 and if you really can't beat Button in quali over a season then you don't deserve a McLaren seat.
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

maybe not for 30x the wage of the GP2 boys
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by LH44 »

Button will have to take a massive pay cut. No doubt about that. He's not walking away with £16million+ a year and Ron is certainly no mug. Last year the announcement of taking up the extra option on his contract was delayed because Whitmarsh wanted to extend it to a multi-year deal until he was ousted.
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by What's Burning? »

Rumor has it that Whitmarsh had a master plan, after signing button to a five year deal, he was going to switch to Renault engines in the V6 turbo era.

Can you imagine how handsome button would be with some distinctive aging and a hint of white in the sideburns or salt and pepper hair?
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by racechick »

He really was sweet on Button wasn't he. What a strange man he was.he had the potential to win races and championships there in his hands (2012) and just squandered it. What was he thinking?
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by What's Burning? »

racechick wrote:He really was sweet on Button wasn't he. What a strange man he was.he had the potential to win races and championships there in his hands (2012) and just squandered it. What was he thinking?

He was thinking about Jenson's package. I mean... aerodynamic package.
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by LH44 »

When Whitmarsh proposed to go and recruit Jenson after Mercedes bought Brawn and made it clear they were not keen on him, there was strong opposition within McLaren and this where it all started. Whitmarsh had to make the Jenson- McLaren combo work at any cost and unfortunately Lewis paid a heavy price. The shedding of tears at Oz when Jenson took his first win was a clear sign of what was to come. I see this at work everyday when managers recruit in their own kind, do anything to make it work and turn a blind eye to any failings. I find it strange the way some detractors put forward 2011 as Jenson beating Lewis hands down. Despite any issues Lewis might have had, he still won the same amount of races as Jenson (3No) and as usual completely out-qualified him. If Vettel achieved half of this against Ricciardo, some would start to take him seriosuly as a 4time WDC. But mid-season 2012 confirmed Whitmarsh's priorities and his insistence on helping Jenson to the peril of the team. True to form, he followed this up with a royal fukup by throwing away the fastest car at the end of the season for a totally new car despite the fact that major rule changes were due at the end of the season. There's no doubt in my mind that the current McLaren regime would've at least won the WDC in 2012
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by racechick »

Great post LH44, you say it exactly! . And my frustrations at the time seeing that going on was mega, made worse by the ' don't be silly there's nothing going on , whitmarsh doesn't favour Jenson' brigade. When it was blatant. .
Yes I'm con involved they screwed up that championship in 2012 for themselves and for Lewis. And obviously Paddy had had enough too. It answers why Lewis lost his engineers as well.
And following Jensons lead, or car preferences, for the 2013 season was the death knell really. I'm just so pleased Lewsi listened to the right people and his own voice when he made his decision to move. Royal screw up all round was Whitmarsh
And all that is why I'm harsh on Jenson. And yes I realise it's Whitmarsh's fault mainly, but I can't help it.
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

We all knew this, and we all knew of the relationship the insidious TP had with Max who afterall 'facilitated' the removal of Ron, allowing Insidious to take over on a promise to the board of a new clean McLaren with no horridness to drivers, no shame to the Merc brand and no 100mill fines. The first sign of this was to actually opt for Kers when the rest said no and Merc talked into doing it which they then did really well. And then the next season Insidious turned around and tamely surrendered the Kers advantage they had, the advantage that had cost Lewis any defence of his title as it took them half the season to get it working properly. Its was a real shock when Insidious dint fight to keep it handing the advantage over to RBR who didnt use it and didnt want it. So Insidious handed RBR their aero era and the energy recovery was shelved till later.

i was really angry by then, I even sent emails to the team pointing out the tameness especially with the central console and shared strategist etc. The rest is history, but the unfairness and corruption that lewis suffered and didnt moan about, especially when they got rid of his dad and exploited lewis' loyalty. Urinating on his back and then telling him it was raining, with Insidious and his rent boy giggling about lewis' lateness to meetings and his rapper friends etc

Its was as unfair as the bias ballestrese served on the South american senna in favour of the big nose Frenchman. I was so frustrated that they thought Button could be mareketeable enough if the bought the media steak dinners and gave him Lewis' data and energy. In F1 how do you put a has been lame duck driver over a talent that almost cost Ron his company by backing him?

Luckily the sponsors like Santandar realised that even if you stick lip stick on a pig and call it fifi, its still a pig, on account of the simple fact that it is actually a pig. And the team crumbled around this failed experiment in reverse engineering a pig
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by racechick »

It's hard to get over it. It's impossible to forget it. And it taints ones view of Button. It cost Lewis big time, and the most annoying part is the way he just took it all, he never ever called out Whitmarsh, and still he had the crap written about him, while Button was Mr. Nice Guy. Grrrr. But karma is a sweet one. Where's Mr. Insidious now?

On another point. Did you know it was Whitmarsh who wrecked the FOTA agreement. But that's another story.
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

I think everyone was very very lucky and should be thankful to Ron that Max 'born in a prison because my father was a crown traitor' Mosely was brought down from his recreated personal Valhalla of corruption, nepotism and pure sadism and perversion and eventually resigned despite the shame.

If this had not happened, then Max with his disturbed tame Insidious dungeon party friendly lap dog at the head of Fota, in control of the best F1 team and in his pocket

put it this way - it just doesnt bear thinking about, they would have gotten rid of Bernie and introduced pit boys wearing hitler youth outfits
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by CookinFlat6 »

LH44 wrote: There's no doubt in my mind that the current McLaren regime would've at least won the WDC in 2012


"Jenson Button's tilt at another F1 championship excites McLaren
McLaren have backed Jenson Button to repeat his world championship success of 2009 following his stunning win in the season's opening race here on Sunday.

McLaren, famously, do not have a preferred driver. They treat Button and Lewis Hamilton equally. But the team principal Fartin Twhitarse's high praise for Buttom, and his confidence that the 32-year-old can win the title, will cause Hamilton to bristle in the run-up to the next race in Malaysia on Sunday"


Imagine if this season Matiacci had said this about Kimi over Alonso around after the first race?
now imagine Claire Williams said this about Massa over Bottas,
now imagine Horner had said this about Seb this season over Ricc,
now imagine if Bouilier had said this about Mag over Button
What about if Bouilier had said it about Button over Mag?
Button over Mag?? now replace Button and then Mags with Lewis
Now imagine Button on 15 mill on a long term contract, and Lewis without a contract

Read on to marvel at the biggest sporting misjudgement, miscarriage, incompetence and failure in decision making and leadership ever

McLaren have backed Jenson Button to repeat his world championship success of 2009 following his stunning win in the season's opening race here on Sunday.

McLaren, famously, do not have a preferred driver. They treat Button and Lewis Hamilton equally. But the team principal Martin Whitmarsh's high praise for Button, and his confidence that the 32-year-old can win the title, will cause Hamilton to bristle in the run-up to the next race in Malaysia on Sunday.

That 13th career win was among his finest, taking the lead from his team-mate on the first bend before dominating the race for the remainder of the afternoon.

Whitmarsh described Button as "a driver at the top of his form. He's just got stronger and stronger. He's got such a mature, easy and laid-back manner that belies the underlying hunger to win that he has.

"He must now believe he's in a good chance of a proper title run this year and providing we can continue to improve the car, not make mistakes, be reliable there's no reason why he can't do that."

The encouraging feature for McLaren is that both cars can go faster. Whitmarsh added: "Jenson turned it on when he needed it after the safety car. He drove beautifully, smooth, controlling and pressed when needed to just like a champion would."

With some justification Hamilton has always backed himself to be the fastest driver at McLaren – and in the whole of Formula One, given the right equipment. No one can deliver a fast lap quite like him, as he proved when he took pole at Albert Park on Saturday.

But although Hamilton "won" 2010, winning three races to Button's two, the older driver has been on top ever since, and last year became the first McLaren team-mate to beat Hamilton over a season. Button's win on Sunday took him level with Hamilton with six wins apiece since they joined forces two years ago. He is also ahead on points and pulling away.

Whitmarsh said of Hamilton: "Lewis isn't going to be happy after Australia and when he starts getting happy with being third, or beaten by his team-mate, then he won't be the Lewis we all love and admire.

"It wasn't a shocking start [by Lewis] because he wasn't losing places to the others but it wasn't as good as Jenson's. Unfortunately we pitted with both cars and immediately a safety car was called."

Button's relaxed, friendly manner has made him popular with the McLaren team at the same time as Hamilton, last season, risked alienation by repeatedly criticising the car and flirting, openly, with Red Bull.

Officially, the line at egalitarian McLaren is that nothing has changed and that both men remain equal. Unofficially, however, there has been a change in the balance of power as Button has outperformed his closest rival on and off the track.

Hamilton's contract with McLaren expires this year and although he is expected to sign a new agreement Martin Brundle, the Sky's F1 commentator, said in the April edition of Motor Sport: "On his day, Lewis is unbeatable, and yet I suspect McLaren are wondering whether or not they want to keep him, because he brings so much baggage with him."

Button, meanwhile, feels that Sunday's race is worth more to McLaren than the 40 points they won by coming first and third. "Even if this was not a points race this is massive for us," he said. "Starting the season like this means more to us than the points."

Looking forward to Malaysia, he said: "It's very different. Very hot, very fast, very humid. You turn the car upside down for that one. If it works there we are looking strong.

"I am looking forward to the challenge. We have to change our way of thinking for that race. I know it sounds stupid but it gives us a lot of confidence that we are going in the right direction over the winter. It gives us an idea of what direction to keep going in terms of development."

Meanwhile, Hamilton said: "I don't like going backwards in my career. I went back two spaces back here. I want to make sure in the next race I am going forwards.

"Championships are based on points and consistency, so it's something to work on. Overall, it was a strong weekend and I felt like I did quite well in the race, I just had a couple of unfortunate situations, which I could not do anything about."

The good news for Hamilton and Button is that Whitmarsh believes both men can go faster. Both cars were restricted by fuel-saving considerations in Australia.

Whitmarsh said: "Unquestionable we could have gone a little bit quicker. But we had a quick car here, we should have got a 1-2 and didn't but we're not too displeased. We'll see if we can do it again and take the front row in Malaysia."Ends
Last edited by CookinFlat6 on 26 Nov 14, 10:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did Lewis outsmart Nico over quali success?

Post by racechick »

"McLaren famously don't have a preferred driver", my arse! oh yes they did and they lost 2012 because of it.

that link doesn't work for me , says its old or incorrect..... but if its more of the same its probablky best i don't read it. :hehe:
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