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Why are Ferrari unable to dominate

There is nothing wrong at Ferrari, Not making the best car is acceptable, a team doesnt have to be the best to be happy
1
7%
Its a cyclical thing, its just that the Ferrari winning cycle is a fraction of the losing one
4
29%
Ferrari should have made the best car considering the regulationary reset twice in the last 5 years - something is definitely wrong
2
14%
Its a disaster, big changes are required, RBR should not have a better car than Ferrari in 2014
1
7%
This should not be discussed, its kicking the team, they should never be questioned
4
29%
I don't know and I don't care, F1 doesn't need any team to be happy
1
7%
There is simply too much politics at the team to compete with leaner meaner teams
1
7%
#397031
I think it is time to discuss one of the biggest mysteries of modern F1.
F1 is said to be a sport about money, resources, technically brainy staff, drivers and politics. You spend the money and have all the above and you get results, goes the saying.
However new teams have found it hard to do this, notably the big manufacturers, who were said to lack the nimble leadership and entrepreneurial aspects of the garagista.
However drinks company Red Bull have come along and engineered massive success out of applying the above formula and manufacturer Merc have also applied the formula well.

The question then is why Ferrari with every single advantage the 2 different types of players above have, with many others are not able to build the best car that dominates from the first race

Just a recap of the advantages of the 3, drinks garagista RBR, manufacturer Merc and Ferrari
Engine manufacturer - Ferrari have the most experience making F1 engines
F1 know how - Ferrari have the most experience in F1
Technical brains - Ferrari have same access to the best (The designer of the 2014 Merc, Costa was sacked by Ferrari)
Resources - Ferrari have the most F1 resources, from racetracks to heritage to fanbase, everyone wants to drive and work for Ferrari
Politics - Ferrari have a special and privileged position, extra money and extra say in rules they want - No one has a better deal
Money - Ferrari have spent the most money, they have a giant owner in Fiat, and they are the most powerful brand in the whole world
Drivers - Ferrari have 2 WDCs, RBR have 1 WDC and Merc have 1 WDC

Clearly anything Merc and RBR have done Ferrari are in a better position to do better, yet they havent, ever, except for a period with MS, Todt and Brawn.

So what exactly is wrong?
Last edited by CookinFlat6 on 01 Apr 14, 07:50, edited 1 time in total.
#397035
I don't think there's any reason for concern. This is F1. Teams' forms fluctuate. They always have done.

Ferrari's longest loosing streak lasted 20 years from the late 70s to the late 90s. And then they dominated. And then they dropped away again.

The only thing is, the teams you are comparing them too are relatively recent, and have only enjoyed short term success. Merc have yet to win a title (although that is soon likely to change). RBR have a small collection from recent times.

But these are nothing compared to what Ferrari, McLaren and Williams have between them. Those three teams are the building blocks of the sport, and have long term futures which will cement further titles when the formbook changes yet again. RBR and Merc's success will be limited, just as we've seen since the sport began. The difference being, when Merc and RBR fade in form, they'll also fade from the sport. And that's where Ferrari and McLaren will pick up the pieces.
#397043
The workforce are always super stressed because of all the red everywhere.
#397049
What's wrong at Ferrari is that they can't put their resources to use under the existing regulations. If they could do unlimited testing at a track they'd be doing better. Yes it's surprising they're behind RBR given the regulatory changes in 2014 and that they could have exploited something they're good at which is making engines but that doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong.

Well there was this one issue with the wind tunnel but that's fixed. :wink:
#397050
That time in the MS/Todt/Brawn era....I believe their closest challenger was McLaren and no one else, till Renault came back.

Unlimited budgets, their own private test track and rules which were custom made for Ferrari's philosophy - V10s, their bread and butter area, and Mad Max who was their best friend through it all till the Concorde bullsh!t came up and he got caught with his pants down in a basement.

Now with constraints for all, rules which are not built for Ferrari's practice, and a driver who isn't the quickest but the most cunning (and this gets you only so far), there's reason for them to not dominate anymore. However, in order to compete with the rest they could still do that although their experience in hybrids and energy recovery systems aren't that great. Their team boss said it himself, they have much less resources to work with compared to Mercedes in the engine department since they're now forced to evolve out of their comfort zone.

IMO they have great resources but not an organization which is strong enough to compete with a couple of others. There are better players in the sport now, more efficient and as determined to make the necessary impact. Ferrari did great against McLaren in that era where they turned fully commercial and privateers were dying out but the 'monsters' have grabbed the baton and are better placed for success. :thumbup:

But I'd like to hear other opinions as I could be just talking trash as usual.
#397058
If RBR, who are a drinks company, can come along and buy the elements required for domination, and carry some of that success through a regulation change designed for manufacturers, then I do not understand why Ferrari cannot do the same.

It just does not make sense that given the time to prepare for this new era, that RBR can end up with what appears to be a better car than Ferrari. It cannot be down to just 1 guy called Newey - Merc built a team to beat him, so why havent Ferrari?

What is the difference between RBR and Ferrari? There must be something wrong if Merc and RBR, 2 different firms can both come out ahead of Ferrari in 2014. Its not staff, or drivers, or technology as RBR have much less resources in that direction.

Are Ferrari fans really happy with the situation? What if Alonso leaves?
#397073
My take on it, for what it's worth........

Basically Ferrari's engine isn't as good as merc's. Maybe they've not had so much practise with different sorts of engines as Merc. And this current era, with the big change is very much about the engine.

At the risk of getting my wrists slapped I am going to be a little superficial and stereotypical now regarding German and Italian engineering.
Italian design/ engineering is known for its heart stopping beauty. It arouses emotion. It looks gorgeous.

German design/ engineering is known for its robustness and relentless attention to detail.

If you want a car to turn heads and give you orgasms when you drive it, you'd buy a Ferrari. If you want all your needs taken care of and a car that will go on for ever, you'd buy a Merc.
Me, I'd go for the orgasm every time :P

But in this time of change, it's the German planning and attention to detail that has borne fruit. Ok it's not just about the engine, but that's the biggest thing that's making the difference.
I apologise for the stereotyping, but I do think elements of truth are in there.
#397075
Its not the number of staff, or drivers, or technology - just the quality.


Ok so the quality of staff at Ferrari is worse than at RBR and Merc?

Why did Ferrari sack Aldo Costa who has designed the 2014 monster Merc?

If Aldo Costa is better than all the engineers they have at Maranello then the problem MUST lie with why and who sacked him

agreed?
By LRW
#397077
Its not the number of staff, or drivers, or technology - just the quality.


Ok so the quality of staff at Ferrari is worse than at RBR and Merc?

Why did Ferrari sack Aldo Costa who has designed the 2014 monster Merc?

If Aldo Costa is better than all the engineers they have at Maranello then the problem MUST lie with why and who sacked him

agreed?


Yes.
#397078
Italian design/ engineering is known for its heart stopping beauty. It arouses emotion. It looks gorgeous.

German design/ engineering is known for its robustness and relentless attention to detail.

If you want a car to turn heads and give you orgasms when you drive it, you'd buy a Ferrari. If you want all your needs taken care of and a car that will go on for ever, you'd buy a Merc.
Me, I'd go for the orgasm every time :P

But in this time of change, it's the German planning and attention to detail that has borne fruit. Ok it's not just about the engine, but that's the biggest thing that's making the difference.
I apologise for the stereotyping, but I do think elements of truth are in there.


Interesting idea, even if a little conceptualised. However that doesnt explain how RBR are ahead with a FRENCH engine. I never hear of French attention to detail or heart stopping beauty, if anything the French designers tend to give up fairly easily and throw the white towel in
#397082
Italian design/ engineering is known for its heart stopping beauty. It arouses emotion. It looks gorgeous.

German design/ engineering is known for its robustness and relentless attention to detail.

If you want a car to turn heads and give you orgasms when you drive it, you'd buy a Ferrari. If you want all your needs taken care of and a car that will go on for ever, you'd buy a Merc.
Me, I'd go for the orgasm every time :P

But in this time of change, it's the German planning and attention to detail that has borne fruit. Ok it's not just about the engine, but that's the biggest thing that's making the difference.
I apologise for the stereotyping, but I do think elements of truth are in there.


Interesting idea, even if a little conceptualised. However that doesnt explain how RBR are ahead with a FRENCH engine. I never hear of French attention to detail or heart stopping beauty, if anything the French designers tend to give up fairly easily and throw the white towel in


Well, French are somewhere in between..........but got this new engine a bit wrong. But the Newey designed aeros on the car drag it up the grid. So it's slow going straight but fast round corners. And overall that makes it fast enough to beat the Ferrari's.
#397085
Its not the number of staff, or drivers, or technology - just the quality.


Ok so the quality of staff at Ferrari is worse than at RBR and Merc?

Why did Ferrari sack Aldo Costa who has designed the 2014 monster Merc?

If Aldo Costa is better than all the engineers they have at Maranello then the problem MUST lie with why and who sacked him

agreed?


I think focusing on one person is the wrong approach. It's the approach Ferrari took - they replaced Costa, as he was the one responsible for leading the design team. The cars weren't good enough, so get rid of the guy in charge, right? Meanwhile, Mercedes snapped up Costa as part of a larger recruitment drive as part of building their team. A lot of key technical staff were acquired prior to this season's car being completed.

I believe access to larger numbers of said high-quality staff may be a major cause of the issue for Ferrari, rather than just not trying to get them. With eight of the teams in the UK, it's probably easier for a UK-based team to snap up major talent from another UK-based team than for a team further afield to convince them to pack up and head abroad. I'm not saying it's possible, but I imagine it will certainly have an impact. We've heard several times in the past about Ferrari trying to hire Newey and being told he doesn't want to leave the UK for Italy, despite the huge sums he was likely offered. In addition, we have some fantastic universities for engineering in the UK, which could certainly play a big part in it.
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