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Will RBR end the season top of the Renault teams?

Yes, of course, Newey is a magician
5
36%
It could happen, but is far from a certainty
5
36%
Nope, tight packaging leading to ERS failures are his Achilles heel, and this year demands a different set of priorities
4
29%
#391012
Heres an interesting article from Mark Hughes related to this thread http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/has-the-red-bull-era-come-to-an-end/

This is an F1 pro followers speculations backed with facts. The interesting stuff is as follows;
From Renault
The intriguing question is whether this is just a glitch from Renault or the early part of a very painful learning curve. “We believed our initial configuration was a robust start point for track use,” said Renault Sport’s Rob White, “but it has not proved to be the case. We have done substantial dyno running in a similar configuration with few issues.

We now know that the differences between dyno and car are bigger than we expected, with the consequence that our initial impressions were incomplete and imperfect.” Mercedes’ running at Jerez gave the impression of a deeper preparation.

From Merc
“If you start too late you get committed down a route whether it’s right or wrong,” says the team’s recently ex-team principal Ross Brawn. “With such different car concepts you want to be able to take a few different routes and then be able to choose – and that’s what we did.

“One of the big challenges with these cars is the cooling concept – which has to be hand in hand with the engine concept. For example: what charge air temperature are you going to try and target? Because of the fuel flow restriction, it doesn’t follow – like it did in the old days – that the cooler you keep the charge flow the more power you generate.

“Because you’ve got fuel flow limits the optimum air charge temp is now much more linked to the maximum fuel flow; it’s quite a complex, multi-dimensional problem and solution and no longer ‘let’s charge the air as soon as we can to get more horsepower’.”

For the last few months Ross had the team drilled at Brackley to run the new engine and its associated systems on the dyno there exactly as if it were a Grand Prix weekend, with practices one, two and three, qualifying and race – and the same amount of time between running. “That brought to light an enormous number of problems we wouldn’t otherwise have found,” he explains.


The basis for assuming this is not just like any other Jerez test where some teams start slowly
“I think the work we did to get the project started early and the problems we had on the dyno – in developing a drivetrain in as representative a condition as possible to that we get on the track – told us that turning up at the track without doing all that would be a nightmare.

“I remember the problems we had when we put an engine and gearbox and all the other gubbins on a dyno and tried to get the whole thing to run properly – all the energy recovery systems and all the rest. The first few months were a nightmare. Some teams are having problems now: but at what point on that curve are they?

“If you approached it like the old days – just take the engine, plug it in, stick a gearbox on the back of it and stick it on the track – you’ll have a nightmare. Heat, installation, the dynamic coupling of everything – it’s fascinating in many ways. But God help those who have not been on the dyno in representative conditions.


His conclusion
Is the Red Bull model of simply being supplied engines by a separate entity a much bigger disadvantage than in the engine freeze days? It’s very early days – and who would be all that surprised if the RB10 with its re-fettled Renault turns up at the next test and blitzes everyone? – but it’s a thought isn’t it?


So its alright to speculate people, it could go either way, thats the uncertainty and interesting aspect everyone wanted after a period of predictability. This is not the time to stick heads in the sand. This is the time to look at the facts and then form an opinion about the situation, or at least let others do so :thumbup:
#391015
I think Lotus may be gunning for that. Caterham might not have the resources. Having said that having to redesign a car in a couple of weeks when the others have several months headstart is exactly what people always said about this major reg change - that there would be someone who got it badly wrong and that would give a chance to the back grid teams to move forward.

Depending what we see in Bharain, but if the RB10 is plagued by over heating and fires (remember we saw a lot of this before on Neweys previous car) this time round there wont be Webber driving around without Kers most of the races, this time the car will no be completing the races. So newey has to redesign a car that is even better packaged than the car of the last 4 years.

If the Lotus team can rack up some results in the first flyaway round, its gonna be hard to catch up. Look at McLaren in 2009, that car didnt have to be completely redesigned round the back and it took till late season for Lewis to turn things around

There is also talk that Renault are most upset with RBR for how they packaged the PU, Lotus could sneak in there and become the de facto works team getting help first etc. Lotus will still have a load of bods from the Renault days
#391019
So far Caterham have played safe, big cooling inlets, they have also completed most laps, albeit at a slow delta to other engine families. This suggests once Renault sort out their engine issues Caterham should be able to start looking at going faster as their car appears like its actually working (without holes drilled in for extra cooling)

If Newey redesigns and plays safe with cooling, the car aint gonna be fast. With the Merc and Ferrari they have advanced and robust solutions for cooling vs aero balance. So Newey has to come up in a couple of weeks with a solution that allows tight packaging at the back for downforce AND also allows enough air to actually get into rear.

Is he really that clever to be able to come up with something, build it, test it, fine tune it, when its taken other teams months if not years to come up with their solutions? Can he come up with something that looks like the Merc and Ferrari solutions - 'small sidepods-channelling aero to tight rear for downforce' or what he had before, front aero to floor to rear this time with bigger sidepods, meaning less DF at rear?

Has he got time to come up with something as complex as Merc/Ferrari that allows him to keep small side pods (more rear DF) and small inlets (faster aero) AND still cool the PU properly? (forgive the conceptual simplification of the design)

If he does all the engineers at Merc and Ferrari will surely be sacked for overlooking a solution that could be implemented in a few weeks instead of spending all that time :hehe:
#391049
Horner insists 'there is nothing wrong at RBR'

"There's a few things we needed to tighten up on our side but nothing major and obviously Renault have some issues that they are tidying up as well," Horner told Sky Sports News. "But these cars are so complicated that even small problems can cause big failures."

However, despite the sense of calm being exuded by Horner, the Red Bull boss shied away from offering any sort of assurance that a fix will be in place for next week's test in Bahrain.
#391055
As far as the Redbull top brass are concerned, it's about playing down their issues and keeping their partners/sponsors from sweating too much so I wouldn't expect Horner to come out and say "we're done for, 2014 is a goner". He's doing what he's supposed to do...however, let's see how quickly they're able to pick themselves out of their pickle(s) by Melbourne.

So far we've only learned that the Merc engine is the most reliable and possibly the most prepared engine out of the 3 but in terms of pace no one's come close to showing their hand yet. Only McLaren had updates to test, everyone else were running bare minimum parts. Last couple of days in Bahrain should tell us more.
#391061
Apparently Omnicourse are claiming that the Lotus test went well and that Renault have asked them to share details of their installation with RBR - Lotus apparently not happy

A completing team not being happy with sharing data with an opponent... how surprising! And unlikely, I can't see Lotus giving up any advantage they might have!
#391070
Yeah, if true it makes sense

Interestingly enough, this would mean Renault are treating each team as a pure customer and respecting confidentiality and IP. Over at Merc they would know each customers data, and while maybe not telling the other customers would surely gain a benefit themselves

Then we have the public requests from Button that Mercedes team should work together and share data, implying that with just 1 year with Merc, there might already be a differentiation. Definetely as the year goes on we would expect McLaren to lag behind the other customers wrt to getting the best out of the PU, as Merc will naturally be very careful what 'extra' info above the neccessary is passed over
#391071
If true it's kinda dumb of Renault to ask that of Lotus. Already showing bias in customer service, way to go Renault. Scratch one customer off a possible extension when the current agreement runs out.
#391073
If true it's kinda dumb of Renault to ask that of Lotus. Already showing bias in customer service, way to go Renault. Scratch one customer off a possible extension when the current agreement runs out.

Lotus Honda?

It's interesting that we're having this conversation in the first place. The changes to the regulations did what they were intended to do, remove the exploitation of blown rears that was making the previous iterations of Red Bull cars so dominant. Everything else is still up in the air.

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