FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[What's Burning?]

Where's mnmracer when you need him?

[LRW]

Oh he is here....

[CookinFlat6]

Stats dont lie

The reason Seb has 4 wdcs (apart from the best car) is that he consistently brings that car home in front. Thats what Heidfeld is best at, in much worse cars he has come second and consistently brought points and podiums.

Just saying had he had the best car he wouldnt suddenly get les consistent especially with a near 2 sec advantage at times and no effective competition from a team mate.

yes Seb is a true great because he actually got the WDCs, and Nick is out of F1 because;

a) he is much much worse driver than Seb
b) he never had the best car like Seb had for 4 years
c) he would likely have the same results as Seb had he a touch of luck
d) non of this matters because only the results and stats matter

edit; bonus option e) Heidfeld is beter off auditioning for the BeeGees revival or as a Uboat commander in Das Boot

note to mods; can we turn the options into a Poll as I couldnt work out how

[1Lemon]

Stats dont lie

Missing Mnmracer?

The reason Seb has 4 wdcs (apart from the best car) is that he consistently brings that car home in front. Thats what Heidfeld is best at, in much worse cars he has come second and consistently brought points and podiums.

Ah but there is consistently bringing the car home a la Button, and bringing it home in a high up position a la Kimi.

[Big Azza]

Its not as if Seb wins even when the car is not the best,

Spain 2011, Monaco 2011 (of course controversially) and Brazil 2011 comes to mind, but he didn't win then... But we would never know really, because the car Vettel drove won - so it was the best. When Hamilton won his races in 2007 with the best car, and during 2008 at times it was the best. When Shumacher, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Senna, Prost, Lauda, Rindt, Clark, Stewart, Fangio won their titles, they were driving the best car. Whoever wins a race usually has the best car...

its not like he dominated his teammate when the 2 had equal opportunity in 2010.

From what I remember of that season, Vettel was on pole 10 times to Webber's 5, and he was pretty much leading and on to win almost every single race but either had a mechanical failure or made a stupid mistake.... In 2011 he ironed out the stupid mistakes.

But he was on level ground with Webber in 2009 and won 4 races to Webber's 2, and was on pole 4 times to Webber's 1....

[Denthúl]

Well I'd say the difference between Heidfeld and Vettel is Vettel was able to win in his second year with a midfield car. Something Nick was never able to do in his many years in F1.

Yes, but that's ignoring circumstances surrounding the victory.

True, but Heidfeld had 11 years in F1 to benefit from similar circumstances. And if anything, I would have thought heavy rain would have shown even more clearly how talented Seb was. Heidfeld certainly didn't seize the opportunity.

There was an interview with Newey either late on in 2008 or possibly 2009 after RBR won at China where he explained the way that the airflow coming off Bridgestone's wet tyres interacted with their car to create more downforce (note the increased performance of most RBT-designed cars during 2007 and 2008 when sessions were wet). Even in Italy in 2008, three of the four cars (Vettel, Webber and Bourdais) started in the top four, so there was definitely a car advantage at the time. It was a great drive, but I can't think of a scenario where Heidfeld had those kind of circumstances to benefit from.

[CookinFlat6]

Ah but there is consistently bringing the car home a la Button, and bringing it home in a high up position a la Kimi.

Heidfeld holds the record for most podiums without a win - he has never ever had anywhere near the best car
he also has the record for most second places without winning

What do you think he would do in the best car by a mile, and with a nobbled teammate?

Suddenly panic and stop making second place?

[1Lemon]

In any of his seasons where he got at least 1 podium. Did hid teammates ever win a race?

(I'm at work now and can't look. All the more reason for me to continue working on my F1 driver comparison website. )

[Big Azza]

In any of his seasons where he got at least 1 podium. Did hid teammates ever win a race?

(I'm at work now and can't look. All the more reason for me to continue working on my F1 driver comparison website. )

Yes 2008 when Kubica won, come on man - you should know this!!!

[1Lemon]

In any of his seasons where he got at least 1 podium. Did hid teammates ever win a race?

(I'm at work now and can't look. All the more reason for me to continue working on my F1 driver comparison website. )

Yes 2008 when Kubica won, come on man - you should know this!!!

So even when he had a race winning car, he still never quite won, yes he brought the car home, but he never made that top step. And he had a long time to do it in.

[Hammer278]

In any of his seasons where he got at least 1 podium. Did hid teammates ever win a race?

(I'm at work now and can't look. All the more reason for me to continue working on my F1 driver comparison website. )

Yes 2008 when Kubica won, come on man - you should know this!!!

So even when he had a race winning car, he still never quite won, yes he brought the car home, but he never made that top step. And he had a long time to do it in.

He had 1 chance to win a race in his career, it was the freak race where Hamilton lost his mind in the pits and crashed into Kimi. Both of them were fighting for the win at that point. Heidfeld came 2nd. Hardly a crime.

[Big Azza]

In any of his seasons where he got at least 1 podium. Did hid teammates ever win a race?

(I'm at work now and can't look. All the more reason for me to continue working on my F1 driver comparison website. )

Yes 2008 when Kubica won, come on man - you should know this!!!

So even when he had a race winning car, he still never quite won, yes he brought the car home, but he never made that top step. And he had a long time to do it in.

Yes although it should be mentioned that the race was Canada 2008, where Heidfeld was leading Kubica but had to give the position to Kubica because he was slower than Kubica for some reason... And theoretically Sauber shouldn't have won that race but a certain British racing god couldn't even understand the traffic lights at the end of the pit lane and crashed into the back of a helpless Raikkonen stopped in the pit lane...

Theoretically Raikkonen or Hamilton would've won that race... But still... to quote Cookinflat and the great mnmracer... "Stats matter"

See I'm deliberately playing Devil's advocate, even though I think Heidfeld was the most mediocre driver in recent history... Wow - see I look like I'm going one way, and then I go the other... I am OUT. OF. CONTROOOOOL!

[1Lemon]

In any of his seasons where he got at least 1 podium. Did hid teammates ever win a race?

(I'm at work now and can't look. All the more reason for me to continue working on my F1 driver comparison website. )

Yes 2008 when Kubica won, come on man - you should know this!!!

So even when he had a race winning car, he still never quite won, yes he brought the car home, but he never made that top step. And he had a long time to do it in.

Yes although it should be mentioned that the race was Canada 2008, where Heidfeld was leading Kubica but had to give the position to Kubica because he was slower than Kubica for some reason... And theoretically Sauber shouldn't have won that race but a certain British racing god couldn't even understand the traffic lights at the end of the pit lane and crashed into the back of a helpless Raikkonen stopped in the pit lane...

Theoretically Raikkonen or Hamilton would've won that race... But still... to quote Cookinflat and the great mnmracer... "Stats matter"

See I'm deliberately playing Devil's advocate, even though I think Heidfeld was the most mediocre driver in recent history... Wow - see I look like I'm going one way, and then I go the other... I am OUT. OF. CONTROOOOOL!

He was above mediocre, but not amasing.

[CookinFlat6]

What I've done is brought some stats out and tried to generate some inferences from them. Stats are not the end all and be all and are there to be used as one pleases.

To not accept the inferences is not to be immoral and filthy etc etc

It's a great starting point for a debate, to make inferences and propositions about stats, not to use stats to insult and beat others round the head with if they infer differently.

There is no right or wrong here and it's been an interesting yet civil discussion

Would be good though to turn this into a real poll and see how people vote on the original premise- how many WDCs would Heidfeld have won given Sebs position, so far the only ones who have actually answered have all said he would win at least two

[1Lemon]

Would be good though to turn this into a real poll and see how people vote on the original premise-

note to mods; can we turn the options into a Poll as I couldnt work out how

You really want to turn this into a poll don't you