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#443899
F1 is not staged for the benefit of the drivers or the spectators, it is an expensive publicity exercise
by the major car manufacturers to convince their customers that their cars are the best in the world – and a 'must have' in the prestige car market. Therefore although there are two championships, the constructors one is the prize, and the drivers one is manipulated to gain it, and / or maximise the publicity for the constructors and their sponsors. A glaring example is the publicity gained by Red Bull after the 2016 Spanish Gran Prix. Realising they'd only be noted as the lucky recipients,and post race headlines would be all about the Mercedes duo taking themselves out, they deliberately robbed Ricciardo of a potential win for the benefit of Max Verstappen, and trumpeted the fact that an 18 year old novice on his Red Bull debut had become the youngest F1 winner in history -and it worked - those were the headlines, and how the race is remembered. This ability of constructors to manipulate the drivers championship takes many forms, slow pit stops, inappropriate call ins, but clearly the most unfair are grid penalties for mechanical failures, logically a replacement gearbox does not give a driver any advantage over the others, yet these have allowed Mercedes to get their preferred candidate, a German, as the winner., and the extra home publicity and interest that engenders. They could – and should - be stopped. Logically Mercedes F1 success should be judged not only by what it has achieved performance wise in the hands of their best engineers, but the amount of expensive failures which engendered driver grid penalties, penalties which should clearly show up on their constructors championship table as guide to the likely reliability of their road vehicles – minus 50 points for a gearbox or engine problem and a 100 for a complete engine failure might do it.. In 2016 this would have relieved Niki Lauder of the task of trying to convince Hamilton that despite the fact that eight drivers on the grid were using Mercedes running gear, it was just bad luck that he was the only one to suffer, gifting the title to Toto Wolf's protege, Lauda's fellow Bavarian . Unfortunately, at some stage all the major players have threatened to quit over rules they didn't like, so I don't believe the FIA has got the clout to sort it.
#443900
Lauda (not Lauder) and Wolff are both Austrians - Bavaria is in Germany. I know it can be confusing sometimes.
Re. your point: it is what it is and it's the same for everybody - to call it fraud is ridiculous: nobody is being deceived resulting in financial or personal gain since the rules are clear and open.
#443901
Hamilton lost last season because he put his car into the wall in Baku and he gave away 4 pole positions due to bad starts. Plus Rosberg was bloody consistent all season, Hamilton was not.
#443904
Lauda (not Lauder) and Wolff are both Austrians - Bavaria is in Germany. I know it can be confusing sometimes.
Re. your point: it is what it is and it's the same for everybody - to call it fraud is ridiculous: nobody is being deceived resulting in financial or personal gain since the rules are clear and open.

Your nit picking is idiotic, Mercedes are GERMAN - and my point was that it's the car buying public who are being misled , the majority don't follow F1 closely, and if these persistent faults are down to Mercedes best engineers what's the quality of the production cars? Actually, blinded by the publicity, many of the people who buy them don't read the motoring press either or they'd know the panning some models have had. Being penalised for something you have no control over makes a mockery of the DRIVERS championship
#443905
Hamilton lost last season because he put his car into the wall in Baku and he gave away 4 pole positions due to bad starts. Plus Rosberg was bloody consistent all season, Hamilton was not.

I believe Hamilton won last season, and Rosberg wasn’t racing. The year before that, which you may be getting confused with, Hamilton did indeed suffer with a very inconsistent car. But that’s all part of racing.
#443910
Of course, sorry.
#443915
Lauda (not Lauder) and Wolff are both Austrians - Bavaria is in Germany. I know it can be confusing sometimes.
Re. your point: it is what it is and it's the same for everybody - to call it fraud is ridiculous: nobody is being deceived resulting in financial or personal gain since the rules are clear and open.

Your nit picking is idiotic, Mercedes are GERMAN - and my point was that it's the car buying public who are being misled , the majority don't follow F1 closely, and if these persistent faults are down to Mercedes best engineers what's the quality of the production cars? Actually, blinded by the publicity, many of the people who buy them don't read the motoring press either or they'd know the panning some models have had. Being penalised for something you have no control over makes a mockery of the DRIVERS championship


Mercedes ARE German, but not Bavarian (and neither are Wolff nor Lauda). Mercedes is in Stuttgart, the capital of the German state of Baden-Württemberg. Incidentally, BMW (a former F1 team) IS from Bavaria, Munich to be precise.
You wouldn't call Williams Northern Irish or McLaren Scottish - or maybe you would...
#443920
Hamilton lost last season because he put his car into the wall in Baku and he gave away 4 pole positions due to bad starts. Plus Rosberg was bloody consistent all season, Hamilton was not.

The concept of a publicity driven 'sport' is quite beyond you. You obviously can't read , so why comment ? 2016 was not last season, nor was my post just about Hamilton . My main point was that the Drivers championship table should not be skewed by applying penalties for problems over which they have no control. Secondly , the manufacturers lack of quality control, even when using their best engineers, should be made more obvious to their massed produced road car buying public by registering on their Constructors Championship table.
#443927
Yes I got the year wrong. I think I have totally blocked out last season as it was so poor!
#443930
If this is such an issue, the best thing would be to stop watching.
As a kid, I watched wrestling with my Dad; but, when I realized it
truly was publicity driven I stopped.

That might work for you, too, rather than work yourself up.
Not worth it!
#443944
If this is such an issue, the best thing would be to stop watching.
As a kid, I watched wrestling with my Dad; but, when I realized it
truly was publicity driven I stopped.

That might work for you, too, rather than work yourself up.
Not worth it!

Who's worked up ? Impertinence will get you nowhere. You don't even seem to understand this is a forum deliberately set up to consider matters pertaining to F1. With wrestling - a very poor analogy - the punters who watched enjoyed it as a spectacle, even if many were too naïve to understand it was contrived, so they were not defrauded . Why not answer my question, and justify skewing the drivers championship by penalising drivers for problems over which they have no control? . Publicity falsifying the engineering quality of F1 manufacturers is misleading the general public , and cleaning up F1 would be one way to stop that, to the benefit of those firms with possibly better quality products who cannot afford to partake, and get that publicity. I accept it won't happen, but at least I've tried
#443948
If this is such an issue, the best thing would be to stop watching.
As a kid, I watched wrestling with my Dad; but, when I realized it
truly was publicity driven I stopped.

That might work for you, too, rather than work yourself up.
Not worth it!

Who's worked up ? Impertinence will get you nowhere...

Your comments were not delivered in such a way as to foster discussion.
In fact, you seem to have arrived at a conclusion, before any discussion ever started,
just look at the title you've given the thread.

... You don't even seem to understand this is a forum deliberately set up to consider matters pertaining to F1...

I do understand what a forum is; but, you don't seem to understand that not everyone will have your perspective. Personally, I believe Hamilton's had an easy time of it, in F1. Far easier than most of the young drivers I've seen since I began following F1 about 10 years ago.

...With wrestling - a very poor analogy - the punters who watched enjoyed it as a spectacle, even if many were too naïve to understand it was contrived, so they were not defrauded...

As far as I'm concerned, NO one has ever proven that Hamilton was defrauded of anything.
Those sorts of comments come from fans who refuse to accept that he does not walk on water.

Why not answer my question, and justify skewing the drivers championship by penalising drivers for problems over which they have no control? . Publicity falsifying the engineering quality of F1 manufacturers is misleading the general public , and cleaning up F1 would be one way to stop that...

WoW! You've got it bad, eh? Did you forget that there was illegal tire testing?
Did you forget that Mercedes "helped" F1 write the regulations on turbo engines
and then suggested a freeze on development as a way to cap costs?
Did you forget that his championships with Mercedes were based on these "fixes"?
Did you forget that Hamilton was the "golden boy" at McLaren and treated as
such to the detriment of an established world champion?
ALL drivers have issues with their vehicles, ALL drivers run the same track,
ALL drivers use the same tires and a number of other components.

...cleaning up F1 would be one way to stop that, to the benefit of those firms with possibly better quality products who cannot afford to partake, and get that publicity. I accept it won't happen, but at least I've tried

And, who would decide what it takes to "clean up F1"? Who would be so impartial
and unbiased as to be able to make changes without thinking about how it would
affect their favourite team, favourite driver, favourite manufacturer, favourite track?

Come on, let's be serious. F1 has warts, just as everything else does.
It will NEVER be "cleaned up" to the satisfaction of everyone everywhere.
#443951
I think Cynic has a point. If drivers transgress, they get penalised , but if the car fails, why penalise drivers? Take away constructors points instead.
Putting a driver back on the grid often robs spectators of potential battles and penalises the driver through no fault of his own. I’m not sure why the fixation on Hamilton? Its the same for all drivers.
#443952
I think Cynic has a point. If drivers transgress, they get penalised , but if the car fails, why penalise drivers? Take away constructors points instead.
Putting a driver back on the grid often robs spectators of potential battles and penalises the driver through no fault of his own. I’m not sure why the fixation on Hamilton? Its the same for all drivers.

Conversely, when a driver crashes out or something, not only does he not get points, but the team doesn't get any constructors points either by no fault of their own. Sometimes though, something breaks and causes the driver to crash - fault of the team I'd say. The driver and the team are tied together, win together, lose together. So there's really no point in trying to separate them. Until drivers stop receiving radio communications, stop in the pits, jump out of the car and change tires or replace a damaged nose/wing themselves, F1 remains a team sport.
#443953
Yes I take that point. The two, driver and car are inextricably linked. It is indeed a team sport. Yet there are two championships, so not completely intertwined.
If a driver crashes, both driver and constructor take the hit. If something fails on the car during a race, both driver and constructor take the hit. Fine.

If something fails on a car before the race, the driver shouldnt take the hit. Like with unsafe releases, they fine the team .
Well that’s my view.

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