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[CookinFlat6]

Formula 1 teams have failed to reach an agreement on a lifting of the engine freeze after talks collapsed in a meeting at the Brazilian Grand Prix on Saturday.

The championship-winning Mercedes team had spent the last week evaluating whether to accept a one-off relaxing of the homologation rules to allow a mid-season upgrade next year.

But after analysis of the implications of the rule changes on its overall costs and the impact on its customers, Mercedes decided it could not go ahead with the proposal to allow 13 development tokens to be used next July.

Instead, it offered a compromise deal that would allow just five tokens to be used in July - something that its rivals rejected as not enough.

The matter means that for now the engine freeze rules are staying in place for 2015, and there is now only limited time to find a deal before an F1 Commission meeting takes place later this month.

Speaking about the outcome of the meeting, Mercedes motorsport boss Toto Wolff said: "We offered a slight compromise, which we think we could afford to not change the specifications and the price for the customers.

"We think what is essential in the current environment is not to increase the costs for anybody - the smaller teams or the customer teams. But that was not accepted."

makes sense, try to help your competitors become more competitive, but not if it will cost more for you or your customers who dont need to be more competitive

[racechick]

So . No change. Mercdes played hardball. Toto looks like a big softie but it seems he isn't . Well the point was to stop expense spiralling out of control. Two teams have gone already and others struggling. So it's the right thing.
If the freeze came off ( or they could spend more tokens) Mercedes have a massive amount of extra power they can unleash, so the teams would likely pay loads more money, cause more smaller teams to go under and still be way behind Mercedes.

[CookinFlat6]

yes, somehow it didnt seem to make much sense, having a meeting to try and spend more by unfreezing when 3 teams who are only just still in business are having a meeting threatening a boycott if costs are not reduced

Luckily F1 has Toto to protect it from itself, whats the point of everyone spending 20% more to end up at best the same distance behind Merc?
Ferrari are increasingly looking like losing the plot as the only solutions they seem to have to improving their performance is been allowed to try and outspend a monster car firm, and at a time when they need to be practicing how to compete on a much much smaller budget

It sounds like Horner and MnM tried a spot of coercion or blackmail along the lines of - 'you relax the rule for 2015, or we will go the other way and vote in unlimited spending and zero restrictions for 2016, as that only needs majority vote not unanimous consent' A stellar bit of threatening to cut off their own noses because Merc wouldnt want to see them bleeding.

One option that has been suggested is for Mercedes' rivals to agree on even more relaxed rules for 2016, because majority support among the Strategy Group and F1 Commission would be enough to get the regulations changed.

Red Bull boss Christian Horner hinted that he did not believe the matter was completely finished.

"Nothing is changing, for the moment," he said.

Wolff added: "I am not sure it is the end. Maybe there will be new discussions, or follow up discussions."

However, Wolff urged against any move to get rid of engine development restrictions completely as it could theoretically be pushed through for 2016.

"That would be irresponsible to the sport and disrespectful of the teams who went out," he said.

"As Mercedes this would be not something that we think is an intelligent way forward."

Empty threat, unlimited spending would kill every team bar Merc and McHonda and maybe RBR depending on whether they can expand the market for horrible tasting energy drinks to babies and children

[Jabberwocky]

Sky are reported that mercedes has 60 brake horsepower extra already for next year

[CookinFlat6]

Just the increase in boost pressure could probably deliver that. The good thing about this for the others is they already have a precedent for what happens when we hear rumors that Merc are way ahead of the others. The German press and manufacturers have the kind of relationship that means most things they report or 'leak' are true

[Jabberwocky]

Isn't the boost pressure limited? Or am I thinking of the turbo r pm?

[CookinFlat6]

I think they were running short of the max permitted

[What's Burning?]

Everyone could make more power, the issue is the 100 liter per hour flow. You can't just turn up the boost to make that power, you have to flow more fuel and that would defy the laws of physics. So it's turned into a self imposed cap. The same applies to the engine RPM. The max it 15k but again that would require a higher fuel flow. It's we've never seen the high RPMs in the graphics.

It's amazing to me that we're matching the performance of previous seasons (today's Q times was a track record) even with the imposed limitations. If the fuel flow was raised to say 120 liters per hour, we'd be seeing these cars trounce the times put up by the V10s.

[sagi58]

...Luckily F1 has Toto to protect it from itself, whats the point of everyone spending 20% more to end up at best the same distance behind Merc?...

...Wolff urged against any move to get rid of engine development restrictions completely as it could theoretically be pushed through for 2016.

"That would be irresponsible to the sport and disrespectful of the teams who went out," he said.

"As Mercedes this would be not something that we think is an intelligent way forward."

Empty threat, unlimited spending would kill every team bar Merc and McHonda and maybe RBR depending on whether they can expand the market for horrible tasting energy drinks to babies and children

Maybe you can answer what the point of spending anything at all to stay the same distance behind Mercedes is? Or why it's worth it?

Or, maybe you can explain how it's responsible to the sport to stunt development in other teams, so that Mercedes doesn't have any competition?

Or, even how it's respectful of the customer teams who don't have Mercedes engines to basically ensure that they can't be any more competitive than they are this year?

Also, would you be so kind as to point out exactly where any of the other teams is proposing "unlimited spending"?

Finally, I can't say that I blame Mercedes for rationalizing this edge financially, as that's the buzz word in any business.
In fact, it's a stroke of genius.

[overboost]

This is such a shame that Merc can't keep their word. F1 really needs a competitive spirit right now and this isn't happening when one team can control something as basic as engine development.

The Germans in Stuttgart seem to have great influence in F1 right now, first seen with a no penalty decision for the secret testing last season which helped net three wins for Merc, then a Germany based scandal which is bringing Eccelstone down and now the Merc enforced engine disparity.

I hope that the other teams can find a way to overcome the Merc engine domination in spite of Stuttgart's continued efforts to freeze them out. I think they can do it, F1 needs them to succeed.

[CookinFlat6]

Maybe you can answer what the point of spending anything at all to stay the same distance behind Mercedes is? Or why it's worth it?

Nope, I dont get it either, you need to ask Ferrari why they dont just force FIA and Merc to sell them competive Merc engines to compete with, aint rocket science

Or, maybe you can explain how it's responsible to the sport to stunt development in other teams, so that Mercedes doesn't have any competition?

Merc have lost of competition as the in season development at RBR showed us, RBR went from 2 laps at testing to the most laps over the season, leap frogging ferrari, so they developed all season, as far as engine, they can always buy the engines other competitive competitors use instead of waste money pretending they can build engines within a budget and time frame

Or, even how it's respectful of the customer teams who don't have Mercedes engines to basically ensure that they can't be any more competitive than they are this year?

Never heard of a business to give 2 sh!ts about a competitors customers well being, have you?, all customers could be buying competitive engines even cheaper from Merc, if they pointed this out to the FIA

Also, would you be so kind as to point out exactly where any of the other teams is proposing "unlimited spending"?

Work it out yourself - clue unlimited development has to be paid for

Finally, I can't say that I blame Mercedes for rationalizing this edge financially, as that's the buzz word in any business.
In fact, it's a stroke of genius.

So why bother with these questions?

[CookinFlat6]

Those who favour the unfreeze point to F1 as a pinnacle of innovation and technology in motorsport and say that this does not align with the concept of freezing technology. But it has been F1′s policy for some time in the interest of saving costs, along with restricting the number of engines. These were moves initially proposed by former Jaguar team principal Tony Purnell diubg the Mosley era of the FIA. The V8 engines were frozen after a certain point.
What is unsaid, is that the engine manufacturers have been free to develop flat out in parallel with their 2014 programmes to the extent that the units which will be homologated and used from February 2015 onwards will be quite different from the ones in action currently. Many of Mercedes’ rivals have learned about engine architecture, position of turbos, dimensions of exhaust pipes and such like and will have been working on their 2015 units accordingly. No doubt all will have made gains, but it was interesting to note that recently Red Bull’s Helmut Marko said that the “definitive” Renault engine would not be available to them until July 2015, indicating that they are running late.

As a newcomer to the sport, albeit one who represents its most powerful team, Mattiacci has been working hard to get an early ‘win’ on this unfreeze topic, looking to level the playing field a little and he thought he was making progress.
It is noticeable that the volume has been turned up on this debate since rumours began to emerge that Mercedes’ power unit upgrade for 2015 is a significant one, so it looks possible that next season could be as Mercedes-dominated as this year has been.
The new constructors’ champions have an advantage that they are not keen to lose in a hurry, but Mercedes boss Toto Wolff also points out that once rules are made, the sport should avoid changing them at the last minute as this incurs extra costs, which most of the customer teams in F1 are not in a position to pay.

[CookinFlat6]

Everyone could make more power, the issue is the 100 liter per hour flow. You can't just turn up the boost to make that power, you have to flow more fuel and that would defy the laws of physics. So it's turned into a self imposed cap. The same applies to the engine RPM. The max it 15k but again that would require a higher fuel flow. It's we've never seen the high RPMs in the graphics.

It's amazing to me that we're matching the performance of previous seasons (today's Q times was a track record) even with the imposed limitations. If the fuel flow was raised to say 120 liters per hour, we'd be seeing these cars trounce the times put up by the V10s.

Merc already need much less fuel and a lower fuel flow rate than the other 2 engines, even if they were 6% more economical now for the same power and had improved that by around half as much again for next year - so say they are now 9% better on fuel, they could swap that for 70% HP by increasing the boost without increasing the peak revs. very rough and dirty estimating there but what I mean is, from what we have seen of the Merc this year, the others would have to improve by a big amount to just match the Merc 2014 hybrid, so if Merc have improved and the others are already behind just like last year ........ ..

[youtube]IdcBENN4NSU[/youtube]

[Hammer278]

Its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation for anyone using non-Merc engines. When Merc came in and kept talking about 2014, 2014, 2014, I'm sure they weren't aiming for success in 1 solitary year....rather they probably meant the beginning of their modern era in F1.

[overboost]

Also, would you be so kind as to point out exactly where any of the other teams is proposing "unlimited spending"?

Work it out yourself - clue unlimited development has to be paid for

And who pays for the lost revenues from fewer fans and sponsors driven away by a sport without competition and dominated by one team? Even the fans in Germany aren't willing to pay to see it!