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[sagi58]

Yep, it's reminiscent of some of the things pulled during the Schumacher era of dominance and I don't particularly want to see merc start down that route.

Oddly enough, I've made that comparison to some Hamilton/Mercedes fans and they literally freak out ;
because, you know, it's Hammertime and you can't touch them !!

Let's let sleeping dogs lie...

Wasn't trying to stir the pot, DD!! I just couldn't resist reference to the cool nickname and the song that I love hearing!!

[overboost]

Well Overboost, you certainly know how to generate debate I'll give you that. You are right that Mercedes fell foul of a rule regarding dummy pitstops, Toto immediately put his hand up to that. He didn't have to of course, he could have lied as some teams may have done, and said something along the lines...we had an understanding that if this or that happened blah blah blah, but he didn't, he was truthful. Yet it was hardly crime of the century. Suzie and Toto were whatsapping about it at the time:
Suzie...you needn't think you can trick us like that
Toto... Should I not come home for tea tonight? Shall I get an Indian take away?
But since a rule was broken then the FIA had every right to punish Mercedes for their gamesmanship should they have chosen to. Perhaps a fine or a reprimand? But a grid drop for both their drivers for the next race? Are you serious or desperate? I suspect the latter since without the rain Ferrari would have been severely embarrassed by Williams at Silverstone. Williams with a fraction of Ferrari's budget made their upgrades count and Ferrari were only saved by the rain. Despite all the array of upgrades Ferrari brought in Spain they still were slower than Williams in the dry. And how did Ferrari manage to come up with all those upgrades in Spain with limited development? Changes to the front wing, floor, sidepods, diffuser and rear wing endplates? Well there is a way. You get a team called Hass, which has no development restrictions because it isn't competing this year to do it all for you. Boom! Now that's what I call serious cheating! But then Ferrari were always serious about their cheating.
I'm sorry if this is unpalatable and upsets, but maybe you shouldn't call other teams cheats for bluffing about their hand when your own team sits with three aces stuffed up its sleeve!!

Sagi, I am surprised at your comments regarding Mercedes and Hamilton, when you have gone to such lengths in the past to ensure unpleasant comments are not made regarding the team you support. But you are right on one count, when it comes to Hamilton and Mercedes, you can't touch 'em !

Well generally this is how it works, you cheat (and later even admit to cheating) and then you are given a penalty. If the marshalls were doing their job during the British race then a drive through or 5 secs added to their pitstop would have been awarded for Merc's fake pitstop ruse. After the race is run though all you are left with are grid drops, simple stuff, happens all the time.

Your trying to divert attention away from Merc's cheatin' ways by talking about the rain or speculating about Ferrari renting out their wind tunnel is quite dishonest. The rain has nothing to do with it as it was still bright and sunny on lap 14 and on your other 'point' it is well known that the FIA has given its blessing to the arrangement with Hass.

Anyway if you know a bit about how formula 1 cars work you would realize that Ferrari spending valuable time, money and resources on aero is just chasing hundredths/tenths of seconds around. It is a waste of good money in my opinion because to make the aero work of course you need more power which is where the real time can be found, seconds, but that is a frozen mess isn't it and Merc is not about to relinquish its veto!

Williams of course has the Merc engine package and is doing well with all that power, maybe we will soon see them beating Mercedes on occasion. Merc was obviously afraid enough of Williams in Britain to pull their pitstop prank. That would be a treat wouldn't it, Williams beating Merc using their engine and on a fraction of the budget!

[stonemonkey]

Well Overboost, you certainly know how to generate debate I'll give you that. You are right that Mercedes fell foul of a rule regarding dummy pitstops, Toto immediately put his hand up to that. He didn't have to of course, he could have lied as some teams may have done, and said something along the lines...we had an understanding that if this or that happened blah blah blah, but he didn't, he was truthful. Yet it was hardly crime of the century. Suzie and Toto were whatsapping about it at the time:
Suzie...you needn't think you can trick us like that
Toto... Should I not come home for tea tonight? Shall I get an Indian take away?
But since a rule was broken then the FIA had every right to punish Mercedes for their gamesmanship should they have chosen to. Perhaps a fine or a reprimand? But a grid drop for both their drivers for the next race? Are you serious or desperate? I suspect the latter since without the rain Ferrari would have been severely embarrassed by Williams at Silverstone. Williams with a fraction of Ferrari's budget made their upgrades count and Ferrari were only saved by the rain. Despite all the array of upgrades Ferrari brought in Spain they still were slower than Williams in the dry. And how did Ferrari manage to come up with all those upgrades in Spain with limited development? Changes to the front wing, floor, sidepods, diffuser and rear wing endplates? Well there is a way. You get a team called Hass, which has no development restrictions because it isn't competing this year to do it all for you. Boom! Now that's what I call serious cheating! But then Ferrari were always serious about their cheating.
I'm sorry if this is unpalatable and upsets, but maybe you shouldn't call other teams cheats for bluffing about their hand when your own team sits with three aces stuffed up its sleeve!!

Sagi, I am surprised at your comments regarding Mercedes and Hamilton, when you have gone to such lengths in the past to ensure unpleasant comments are not made regarding the team you support. But you are right on one count, when it comes to Hamilton and Mercedes, you can't touch 'em !

Well generally this is how it works, you cheat (and later even admit to cheating) and then you are given a penalty. If the marshalls were doing their job during the British race then a drive through or 5 secs added to their pitstop would have been awarded for Merc's fake pitstop ruse. After the race is run though all you are left with are grid drops, simple stuff, happens all the time.

Your trying to divert attention away from Merc's cheatin' ways by talking about the rain or speculating about Ferrari renting out their wind tunnel is quite dishonest. The rain has nothing to do with it as it was still bright and sunny on lap 14 and on your other 'point' it is well known that the FIA has given its blessing to the arrangement with Hass.

Anyway if you know a bit about how formula 1 cars work you would realize that Ferrari spending valuable time, money and resources on aero is just chasing hundredths/tenths of seconds around. It is a waste of good money in my opinion because to make the aero work of course you need more power which is where the real time can be found, seconds, but that is a frozen mess isn't it and Merc is not about to relinquish its veto!

Williams of course has the Merc engine package and is doing well with all that power, maybe we will soon see them beating Mercedes on occasion. Merc was obviously afraid enough of Williams in Britain to pull their pitstop prank. That would be a treat wouldn't it, Williams beating Merc using their engine and on a fraction of the budget!

Oh yeah, both drivers in a team getting a drive through or 5 sec penalty for the same thing happens all the time, that's generally how it works. Unless maybe you mean only one driver gets a penalty, I wonder which one that would be.

[myownalias]

That is an interesting question; how could a punishment be administered? as neither driver was directly involved. Maybe docking of constructors points which doesn't affect the drivers points, much like the case with McLaren during 2007's spygate saga.

[sagi58]

That is an interesting question; how could a punishment be administered? as neither driver was directly involved. Maybe docking of constructors points which doesn't affect the drivers points, much like the case with McLaren during 2007's spygate saga.

That would be the ONLY way there would be no backlash from any of the "special interest" groups!!

[overboost]

Well generally this is how it works, you cheat (and later even admit to cheating) and then you are given a penalty. If the marshalls were doing their job during the British race then a drive through or 5 secs added to their pitstop would have been awarded for Merc's fake pitstop ruse. After the race is run though all you are left with are grid drops, simple stuff, happens all the time.

Your trying to divert attention away from Merc's cheatin' ways by talking about the rain or speculating about Ferrari renting out their wind tunnel is quite dishonest. The rain has nothing to do with it as it was still bright and sunny on lap 14 and on your other 'point' it is well known that the FIA has given its blessing to the arrangement with Hass.

Anyway if you know a bit about how formula 1 cars work you would realize that Ferrari spending valuable time, money and resources on aero is just chasing hundredths/tenths of seconds around. It is a waste of good money in my opinion because to make the aero work of course you need more power which is where the real time can be found, seconds, but that is a frozen mess isn't it and Merc is not about to relinquish its veto!

Williams of course has the Merc engine package and is doing well with all that power, maybe we will soon see them beating Mercedes on occasion. Merc was obviously afraid enough of Williams in Britain to pull their pitstop prank. That would be a treat wouldn't it, Williams beating Merc using their engine and on a fraction of the budget!

Oh yeah, both drivers in a team getting a drive through or 5 sec penalty for the same thing happens all the time, that's generally how it works. Unless maybe you mean only one driver gets a penalty, I wonder which one that would be.

I guess the penalty would go to the lead driver? Or perhaps the first driver past the pits while the mechanics are standing there would be the fairest.

[stonemonkey]

I guess the penalty would go to the lead driver? Or perhaps the first driver past the pits while the mechanics are standing there would be the fairest.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

[sagi58]

I guess the penalty would go to the lead driver? Or perhaps the first driver past the pits while the mechanics are standing there would be the fairest.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

Remind me... who was the driver in either of those two scenarios?

[overboost]

On lap 14 the two Williams and the two Mercedes were all together only about 3 secs from first to fourth. So when the 'dummy' was played Hamilton was the lead Merc and he was the first past the pit entrance. So a penalty for Hamilton.

[stonemonkey]

I guess the penalty would go to the lead driver? Or perhaps the first driver past the pits while the mechanics are standing there would be the fairest.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

Remind me... who was the driver in either of those two scenarios?

Did you really need to ask?

[sagi58]

I guess the penalty would go to the lead driver? Or perhaps the first driver past the pits while the mechanics are standing there would be the fairest.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

Remind me... who was the driver in either of those two scenarios?

Did you really need to ask?

I did. I prefer not to assume, as I don't remember every detail of that race.
Actually, I don't remember every detail of any race.

[myownalias]

Personally I think that punishing a driver for the team's actions is grossly unfair to the driver as they were not party to the action. For me it has to be a team punishment, a monetary fine is pointless for the top teams but a significant constructors points deduction, maybe losing the constructors points scored at said race would be a bigger deterrent.

[stonemonkey]

I guess the penalty would go to the lead driver? Or perhaps the first driver past the pits while the mechanics are standing there would be the fairest.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

Remind me... who was the driver in either of those two scenarios?

Did you really need to ask?

I did. I prefer not to assume, as I don't remember every detail of that race.
Actually, I don't remember every detail of any race.

I wouldn't think you'd even need to have seen the race, I thought it would be obvious who would pick up the penalty since it was overboosts idea on fairness.

[myownalias]

Alright, let's not turn this into an anti-Hamilton thread, everyone has stated their view, let's not flog a dead horse! We are not here to make and/or enforce FIA rules.

[overboost]

I wouldn't think you'd even need to have seen the race, I thought it would be obvious who would pick up the penalty since it was overboosts idea on fairness.

I thought I was being very fair by originally suggesting that both drivers receive a penalty!

I can also see moa's point of view that it was a team decision and it therefore should be a team penalty. My counter to that is that the net result if successful would be Hamilton and or Rosberg benefiting from the trick by gaining position over one or both of the Williams cars. Therefore the penalty could be legitimately be applied to the drivers as well.