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#430591
Good writeup on the who/where/what that got Horner and Ferrari in a tizzy about being left behind.

Bleacher Report From the moment the first of Formula One's new hybrid "power units" fired up at the season-opening test at Jerez, they've faced a never-ending barrage of criticism. Some said they were too quiet. Others that they were too complex, too gimmicky, too computerized or too green.

The chorus of opposition has waxed and waned throughout the year, but it has been matched by a more sustained, growing chorus of approval. Though not everyone's cup of tea at the start of the year, they seem to have gained the acceptance of most.

But as the 2014 season drew to a close, Red Bull team principal Christian Horner and F1 commercial rights boss Bernie Ecclestone started to publicly go against the grain. They not only publicly stated their disapproval for the hybrids, but also went so far as to suggest they should be scrapped altogether in 2016.

The 1.6-litre V6 turbo engines, mated to an energy-recovery system drawing power from two sources and returning it to the driver via an electric motor, represented the biggest shift in engine regulations since the world championship began in 1950.

The new "power units" were introduced at the behest of the manufacturers that supply engines to the sport's teams. They wanted greater road relevance—technology which could be developed for F1, then later used in their road cars.

Rising energy costs and environmental concerns have pushed nearly every carmaker towards greater fuel efficiency. Most accept the future lies with, at the very least, hybrid technology—a fusion of traditional petrol or diesel engines and electrical energy systems. These were the areas targeted by the changes.

Motorsport magazine reported Renault made the hybrid switch a condition of their continued participation, while Honda, returning next season, only came back because of the new regulations. Mercedes have said, per the Guardian, that they would also leave if the V6 turbos were scrapped, and even the Volkswagen Group are, per BBC Sport, conducting a feasibility study with a view to a future entry.
After less than a year of existence, the new regulations have done their job by keeping two suppliers and attracting one, potentially two, more.

But they've also created problems, because not everyone did a good job on their new hybrid lumps. With a change of this magnitude, it was inevitable that some of the manufacturers would do better than the others. Mercedes were the winners in 2014, producing an excellent power unit which was the class of the field from the first race to the last.

Renault and Ferrari lagged behind, the knock-on effect being that the teams using their engines were less competitive. This has seen Red Bull, constructors' champions for the last four years, adopt an especially unhappy demeanour all season long. The Austrian team, powered by Renault, kicked off the campaign way behind Mercedes. Little changed throughout the year. Red Bull, Ferrari and all the teams sharing their engines finished up almost as far adrift as they had started.

Part of the reason for this is that engine development is "frozen" during the season. Upgrades are banned between the first race and the last, and can only be applied during the winter break.

These upgrades are applied according to a "token" system. Each engine component is worth a certain number of tokens, of which each manufacturer has a certain number to spend. Despite agreeing to and supporting this cost-saving measure when it was enshrined in the regulations, some of the suppliers developed self-interest led opposition.

Renault (via Red Bull) and Ferrari, aware they would not be able to do all they wanted to during the winter, demanded some tokens be made available for changes during the season.

BBC Sport's Andrew Benson reported in November that Mercedes had agreed to allow a small window of opportunity in July 2015 to spend five tokens. Renault and Ferrari refused to accept the offer, wanting to use 13.

Neither side would budge, so Red Bull's Horner moved on to questioning whether a total change to the engine regulations—including a new type of engine—was needed. He first suggested a return to V8s, then came up with a new type of V6. He wrapped this up in a "cost-cutting" message, saying (h/t BBC):

If we simplified the engine, perhaps retain the V6, but have a twin turbo and maybe a standard energy-recovery system, it would dramatically cut the costs.

It's unsustainable for any of the manufacturers to keep spending at the level we are. So we should maybe look at simplifying the engine because if the development costs stay as they are then we won't attract new manufacturers in. We have to ensure the sport is attractive to new manufacturers.

ESPN reports he repeated his suggestions early in December. On the balance of probabilities, one would have to say he's bluffing to try to scare Mercedes or win a bit of public support, but there's a chance he could actually mean it.

If so, he has an ally in F1 commercial rights boss Bernie Ecclestone. As far back as 2011, The Independent reported he threatened to sue the FIA over the new engine plans, claiming the reduced noise levels would harm gate revenues.

Ecclestone kept up his opposition throughout the season, making frequent Gerald Ratner-style outbursts against his own product. At the United States Grand Prix he told Sky Sports F1, "We need to change the regulations. Get rid of these engines because they don’t do anything for anyone. They are not Formula One."

One could argue that revenue-stripping and short-sighted profiteering isn't "Formula One" either, but regardless of what the sport is or isn't, getting rid of them would be a terrible decision.

The current regulations were agreed by all the current engine manufacturers, with input from potential future arrivals.

Some, like Renault, would have left without the switch. For Honda, they were the reason they decided to come back. Mercedes are here to stay because of the rules, the Volkswagen group is considering an entry and Ferrari had previously seemed supportive as well. The FIA were key in their implementation.

Everyone agreed this was the correct path to take, and a change of heart at this stage would be both weak and self-destructive.

These manufacturers want to develop their own hybrid systems and turbos, not work with a standard version of either. Mercedes have already said they would go, Honda and Renault would almost certainly follow and whatever feasibility study VW are conducting would suddenly vanish into the ether.

And for what? To please a team which got used to winning and now can't handle coming second? So some investors can cream an extra few million pounds off the gate receipts?

Mercedes did the best job under rules that everyone agreed to. They earned their advantage and are more than entitled to benefit from it until at least the end of next season. There's no reason to suggest what had become an aerodynamic formula cannot spend a couple of years as an engine formula as well.

Agreeing to and sticking to rules—whether you win or lose—is a fundamental part of competing in any sport. Shunting the power units aside because one or two participants don't like them would be both unfair and ridiculous. But that's not the only reason they need to stay.

F1 should always be about the cutting edge and beyond—bringing through and developing new technologies which then filter down into everyday life. Active suspension, sequential gearboxes, disc brakes, tyres, vehicle aerodynamics, hybrid systems and fuel technology all owe their existence or current level of advancement to their use in racing cars. And they only came about because of the never-ending quest to be better than the other guy.

As Formula1.com reports, Mercedes say the trickle down from their 2014 efforts has already started. Renault are seeing similar progress as they push on toward greener, cleaner road cars.

Go forward 10 years into the future and buying a full-on hybrid won't be a slightly eccentric, environmentally driven choice—it'll be normal. And the better batteries, more efficient energy-recovery systems, lower fuel consumption and reduced emissions will be in part down to what you see the manufacturers doing in F1 today.

Yes, they're expensive, but the cost of engines is not the problem, so far as F1's finances are concerned. Revenue distribution is.

Yes, they do sound a bit puny—but they're quicker and harder to drive than the old V8s, which more than makes up for their auditory failings.

And yes, maybe they don't suit an energy drinks company which can't deal with losing, or a billionaire whose primary interest is how much money he can transfer from the sport into his own pocket in the next three to four years. But it doesn't really matter.

Ecclestone has done a lot for the sport and Red Bull are unquestionably a valued part of the field.

Are you happy with the current F1 engines?
Yes
55.3%
No
32.1%
Indifferent
12.6%
Total votes: 530

But if they wish to act like transient visitors with selfish short-term goals, let them. If they don't like the way the sport is heading they can go elsewhere and leave Formula One in the hands of those who treat it the right way.

Not as a business or a marketing tool, but as a sport—the most majestic, advanced, important and relevant motorsport in the world.


Very good write up, it seems some people don't like the facts of the matter!
#430592
ferrari are the same on 'open competition' ? How's that then? When they're the only team with a veto and they get paid 100k more than any other team just because they are Ferrari? How does that sit with ' open competition'? But guess that must be ok. But playing by the rules and beating the competition is a big no no :nono::rolleyes:


It's 90 Million euros... basically the entire annual budget of Marussia or Caterham.
#430593
ferrari are the same on 'open competition' ? How's that then? When they're the only team with a veto and they get paid 100k more than any other team just because they are Ferrari? How does that sit with ' open competition'? But guess that must be ok. But playing by the rules and beating the competition is a big no no :nono::rolleyes:


It's 90 Million euros... basically the entire annual budget of Marussia or Caterham.


Yes millions, I meant millions, all those huge amount of zeros ferrari get extra to anyone else are confusing to keep up with. But that ok, that's all fair and above board. But if you do your homework better, if you follow the rules and produce a better engine than the competition, well that's being afraid of the competition. :confused: am I going mad here?
#430594
ferrari are the same on 'open competition' ? How's that then? When they're the only team with a veto and they get paid 100k more than any other team just because they are Ferrari? How does that sit with ' open competition'? But guess that must be ok. But playing by the rules and beating the competition is a big no no :nono::rolleyes:


I am not sure how Ferrari's budget comes into this as they were beaten this season by Williams who had a third of Ferrari's funds! It wasn't money that beat Ferrari and Renault powered teams it was Mercedes engine power. Power which is protected by an FIA rule which Mercedes will not allow to be changed. No amount of money spent on the rest of the car can overcome this rule. I am not aware of a rule which protected Ferrari and handcuffed the rest of the field from innovating or competing.
#430595
ferrari are the same on 'open competition' ? How's that then? When they're the only team with a veto and they get paid 100k more than any other team just because they are Ferrari? How does that sit with ' open competition'? But guess that must be ok. But playing by the rules and beating the competition is a big no no :nono::rolleyes:


I am not sure how Ferrari's budget comes into this as they were beaten this season by Williams who had a third of Ferrari's funds! It wasn't money that beat Ferrari and Renault powered teams it was Mercedes engine power. Power which is protected by an FIA rule which Mercedes will not allow to be changed. No amount of money spent on the rest of the car can overcome this rule. I am not aware of a rule which protected Ferrari and handcuffed the rest of the field from innovating or competing.

Aren't you the one waxing poetic about F1 losing teams because they can't afford the expensive engines and yet you're pushing for the FiA adding to that expense by continuous in season costly engine war? You can't have one without the other.

That money would go a long way towards helping underfunded teams compete. What is ferrari afraid of? Maybe they're afraid of more teams becoming financially functional and giving them competition the way Williams has? Why would Ferrarri stifle competition in such a way?
#430596
ferrari are the same on 'open competition' ? How's that then? When they're the only team with a veto and they get paid 100k more than any other team just because they are Ferrari? How does that sit with ' open competition'? But guess that must be ok. But playing by the rules and beating the competition is a big no no :nono::rolleyes:


I am not sure how Ferrari's budget comes into this as they were beaten this season by Williams who had a third of Ferrari's funds! It wasn't money that beat Ferrari and Renault powered teams it was Mercedes engine power. Power which is protected by an FIA rule which Mercedes will not allow to be changed. No amount of money spent on the rest of the car can overcome this rule. I am not aware of a rule which protected Ferrari and handcuffed the rest of the field from innovating or competing.


ps. Did also you mention Ferrari's veto? Ferrari hasn't used their veto but Merc ins't hesitating in using their's!
#430597
ferrari are the same on 'open competition' ? How's that then? When they're the only team with a veto and they get paid 100k more than any other team just because they are Ferrari? How does that sit with ' open competition'? But guess that must be ok. But playing by the rules and beating the competition is a big no no :nono::rolleyes:


I am not sure how Ferrari's budget comes into this as they were beaten this season by Williams who had a third of Ferrari's funds! It wasn't money that beat Ferrari and Renault powered teams it was Mercedes engine power. Power which is protected by an FIA rule which Mercedes will not allow to be changed. No amount of money spent on the rest of the car can overcome this rule. I am not aware of a rule which protected Ferrari and handcuffed the rest of the field from innovating or competing.

Aren't you the one waxing poetic about F1 losing teams because they can't afford the expensive engines and yet you're pushing for the FiA adding to that expense by continuous in season costly engine war? You can't have one without the other.

That money would go a long way towards helping underfunded teams compete. What is ferrari afraid of? Maybe they're afraid of more teams becoming financially functional and giving them competition the way Williams has? Why would Ferrarri stifle competition in such a way?


That's right, the exorbitant cost of these engines was too much for the small teams and are also threatening Force India, Torro Rosso and Sauber. Cheaper engines are needed and with allowance made for in season updates, F1 is about innovation and competition so this is important and will help the customer teams.
Last edited by overboost on 28 Dec 14, 16:03, edited 1 time in total.
#430598
I believe that's what overboost meant! That Honda doesn't have a problem with having open competition within the season.
There is only one engine manufacturer that doesn't want the freeze lifted, Mercedes.

Yes, they got it right, the first time! Bully for them.

I think it's time they dig their feet out of the sand and accept that "true" competition can't exist in these circumstances.


Are you suggesting Mercedes are afraid of competition? Why? Because they played by the rules and won the game? If they'd gone to Bernie for special favours and then won would that be an honourable acceptable way of winning? Cos I'm a little confused here.

What I am saying and have said is NO one expected there to be such a huge difference in performance.
What I am saying and have said is that "little" salient fact should be factored into the decision as to whether any freeze should exist UNTIL other teams have had the opportunity to catch up to some extent.
What I am saying and have said is Mercedes would still have the opportunity to fine tune what is essentially the best engine of 2014 and probably 2015.
What I am saying and have said is the "increases in cost of development" that Mercedes is putting forth as their reason is NOT as altruistic as they would have us believe.
What I am saying is that sure, they played by the rules and yes, they won the game, fair and square; however, only they were equipped to play the game, this year.

MOST of all, what I am saying and have said is that Mercedes should let up on the freeze IF they want to be taken seriously in F1; because winning with the sort of advantage they have been granted by circumstances, including the rules (regardless of whether or not everyone agreed them) and including the opportunity to put so many resources (including work/development being done on their road cars) is bascially NOT fair play.

Even I know that when Ferrari and Red Bull were dominating, ALL teams had the opportunity to continue development and rightfully did so.

And, that's what I am saying and have said is this lack of opportunity will be the shame that F1 will have to live with, if the freeze isn't lifted, to some extent.
#430599
ferrari are the same on 'open competition' ? How's that then? When they're the only team with a veto and they get paid 100k more than any other team just because they are Ferrari? How does that sit with ' open competition'? But guess that must be ok. But playing by the rules and beating the competition is a big no no :nono::rolleyes:


It's 90 Million euros... basically the entire annual budget of Marussia or Caterham.


Yes millions, I meant millions, all those huge amount of zeros ferrari get extra to anyone else are confusing to keep up with. But that ok, that's all fair and above board. But if you do your homework better, if you follow the rules and produce a better engine than the competition, well that's being afraid of the competition. :confused: am I going mad here?


You do realize that the extra monies Ferrari gets and the "veto" they have isn't anything new, right?
And, that when these became part of Ferrari's involvement in F1, it wasn't a big secret? And, that
other teams were ok with it?

'Tis the truth!
#430600
Wrong. It was a big secret until Luca blabbed that he wanted more special favours. Only then were teams aware of the veto.
But let's examine this 'secret ' issue. It was no 'secret' that engine rules were coming into play this year, and all the teams agreed to it. Merc did nothing underhand , just a better job. All the teams DID NOT agree to Ferrari having a veto or 90 million extra funding. They WERE NOT ok with it.

Overboost. Yes I mentined veto, because its a means by which Ferrari are offered unfair advantage over the other teams, as is their extra funding. The fact that they were unable to make gain With this highly unfair advantage is an indictment on their ability, it doesn't mean it's al ok then. Hey folks it's all ok that Ferrari get all that money and a veto because Williams beat them. :rolleyes:

If you want to talk about stfling competition overboost, That is what Ferrari try to do by these gifts from Bernie. How do you know the veto has never been used? It's was not even known about for years.

Oh, and finally Merc do not have a veto, I've said that umpteen times. Only Ferrari have a veto.
#430610
A simple solution to this madness? Mercedes ceases to provide engines for other teams and agrees to open up the regs to as much power unit development as the others wish. BTW, Mercedes gets to develop too, uncorking even more power and drivability. Guess who still wins that argument? The grumpy ones still refuse to face the obvious reality...Mercedes have dominated for one year (ONE) because they got most of it right (reliability still an issue). Everyone else failed and so it's Mercedes' fault that there is no "show" for fans.

Eric Boullier came out just recently with this gem. He thinks a chance to work on the engines mid-season is crucial to ensure a fair competition. He says, "Doing something that will stupidly increase the costs is not what we want to achieve," said Boullier. "But it's a competition and we can change the cars as much as we want. Within the regulations I think engines should be frozen once every manufacturer has been able to develop their engines. If you disallow the competition, then this goes against the spirit of the sport." Emm...fair? It's not like Mercedes were give the new regs a year before anyone else or given performance parameters/guidelines that no one else got. Everyone sat in the same room, came to the same understanding of the rules. Agreed to them and walked away feeling bullish about their chances. One did a better job and now it's unfair to the rest.

Speaking of Boullier/McLaren, why is he taking the piss about such woes? This was just less than a week ago:
Honda motorsport boss Yasuhisa Arai is confident McLaren Honda will be able to challenge at the very front of the grid from the first race in Australia.

"The new regulation package is very very complex," Arai said. "In Abu Dhabi we did a test and got many data and in that we were already one team as McLaren Honda. I have a strong confidence with our partnership we will win next year in Melbourne and start a new era."
Emm...Have they, Honda and McLaren, discovered already that they will have a sick dog in 2015 and as a consequence told Boullier to go stand in front of a mic to show partisan spirit for the fight against Mercedes? Cause we know Ron and the boys aren't just asking for change for the benefit of all...out of the sheer goodness of their hearts. (It doesn't suit them.)
#430611
The more I see the "irrational" people cry about it being unfair the better I feel. Teams that can't compete shouldn't be on the grid, not be granted special favors. That's the line our ol' absent member Spankyham used to take.

And to make things even more laughable...
Ron Dennis says he will not be content with the revived McLaren-Honda partnership simply winning grands prix and instead wants to dominate Formula 1 as the team did in 1988.


I'm infringing on copyrights here but... such fun! :wink:
#430617
Its very interesting that those that "protest" the most are the ones who are most confused about what exactly is going on.

They confuse the teams with the engine builders, they confuse engine development with car development. Surely its not too hard to go and learn about the regs and history, V8s, V10s, engine freezes, cost caps etc.

There is no difference between teams dominating like Ferrari and RBR in the past and Merc now. This is a fact of a non spec series like F1.

There is no difference between some engine makers being more incompetent than others in the past and now. There is no difference between the new engine regs for the V8s and the V6s now, they all started off unequal and reached parity. Renault took longer than others and received special dispensation to equalise its power deficit with RBR engine mapping trickery resulting in a massive advantage over the others. Renault opted for a smaller Kers, Merc had the best.

This time around the engine equalisation issue is separate to the teams competiveness. Only 2 teams - RBR and Ferrari are non competitive because of their engine makers, Its funny that we are told that the Merc team should somehow be ashamed that these 2 loser teams are not able to compete on a level playing field because their engine makers are useless.
What a joke, Ferrari have proven that even with an extra 90 mill and rules veto they are unable to compete -so the engine excuse is irrelevant, they are just not able to compete on a level playing field historically. RBR who have similarly won recently because of an unlevel playing field are learning to compete without engine mapping advantages over other engines.

It makes the Merc teams domination even more enjoyable because they have check mated the others left right and center, with the regs, on track, in the media, social media, and they even have everyone applauding the SPORTING entertainment they have provided through it all unlike the other 2 losers.

I am not sure any sports has ever seen a more comprehensive check mate. Even if anything is changed for 2016, Merc will not suddenly be caught by the losers, so we are looking at 4 years NO MATTER what happens now before anyone other than Lewis or Merc will be allowed to even have a sniff at a title

And only the most ignorant fans dont understand this or understand the PR war

such splendid fun....
#430623
Its very interesting that those that "protest" the most are the ones who are most confused about what exactly is going on.



McLaren racing director Eric Boullier insists it is in the best interest of Formula 1 to allow Mercedes' rivals to catch up in the engine department.

Boullier, whose team will use Honda power next year after switching from Mercedes, thinks it is essential that the rules are unfrozen in order for Formula 1 to have proper competition.

"Doing something that will stupidly increase the costs is not what we want to achieve," said Boullier.

"But it's a competition and we can change the cars as much as we want.

"Within the regulations, I think engines should be frozen once every manufacturer has been able to develop their engines."

"If you disallow the competition, then this goes a against the spirit of the sport."

"They benefited from the fact that they did a very good job and they benefited from the fact that the regulations are locked with the engines being frozen," he added.

"Most of the gains they have had come from the engine and they will for a couple of years until everybody can match them in terms of development."

"This is what they are benefiting from and if you could unfreeze the engine regs, you will see some catch up."


So Eccelstone, Boullier, Horner, Arrivabene, various race promoters, Renault, Honda, Ferrari, etc are all just 'confused protesters' and don't know exactly what is going on according to internet expert cookingflat6!

If you read Boullier's quotes posted above on the engine freeze fallout you will see that he has an excellent grip on what is going on. The freeze rules are holding back the teams from closing the gap to Mercedes and that competition, the very "spirit of the sport", is being disallowed. These very points have even been raised on this forum but cookingflat6 continues to claim he know better than his fellow fans and a whole host of F1 owners, engine manufacturers, team principals, race promoters, and even CEO Eccelstone! :yikes:

You are right about only one thing, that 2015 will not be rescued and will likely be another lost year for F1 reduced to a one team two driver 'sport' by engine rules. Lets hope that all the teams can see this through and remain in business until 2016 when hopefully (now with McLaren/Honda voting for competitive racing) a reset on engine rules can come into effect.
#430624
Whaddaloadofcrap OB.

So McLaren had the Merc engine this year... how did that "hold" them back? Every single name on your list has very much a self serving interest, not for the sake of competition as you so blindly put it. Did you miss the part above where Boullier's boss said he wanted nothing less than total domination as McLaren had in 88 and Mercedes had this year? Domination, Ferrari had it for a few year, then Renault, then Red Bull, now that Mercedes has it, domination is a dirty word and must be eradicated for the sake of competition.

Well you know what? Suck it losers, enjoy the feeling of struggling as bottom feeders! Make a better attempt at a race car next year. :loser:

I'm liking the feeling of supporting a team and driver that certainly didn't once whine about how tough the sport was... they built a better car. If only the other teams would spend more time doing just that we'd see more competition.
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