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[CookinFlat6]

I think Cookie said he got his information from an article on the Judge's site, correct me if I'm wrong Cookie.
And that's here
http://thejudge13.com/2014/12/02/f1-dai ... mber-2014/
You are right Overboost when you say it's conjecture. The Judge is careful to use words like "allegedly", I doubt Ferrari or Renault would openly advertise they are behind with what they're actually allowed to do.
The Judge's source is 'Auto Motor und Sport'.
Interestingly his site also carries a poll as to where there he engines should be unfrozen or not. It's running 48% NO, 41% YES and the rest ambivalent.

The following link is an interesting article ( but quite a long one) if you want to hear what teams are saying and get a bit of background. It's taken from around the Singapore GP time. I'm only going to post one quote, as Im sure you will all find plenty of quotes that interest you whichever side of the fence you sit regarding this debate. This quote isfrom Manfredi Ravetto of Caterham........
.."I remember when we were using 60/70 engines per year instead of what we have now, and the bill was similar"

can you imagine the bill for 60 or 70engines a year under todays costs!

http://wap.hupu.com/bbs/10509973.html

Auto Motor und Sport are generally correct about things, and combined with Tafins words its clear. The interesting thing about the polls is that those people who are most important - the engine makers and teams actually voted for a freeze already. And not all of them want it changed. In fact only one team - RBR and one engine maker - Ferrari asked for this - no one else at all. 1 engine maker out of 4, 2 teams out of 10. No wonder Horner has abandoned all attempts and is now focused on coming second

Ultimately it doent matter what the fans think about the freeze/unfreeze as most dont understand the details in the first place, they werent consulted when the rules were drawn up and they werent this time around, apart from Horner appealing to the emotions in the same way Luca did in the past

And the interesting thing is Renault dont talk about wanting to spend more, or to unfreeze or to have unlimited development - it was Horner of RBR. Toto pointed out that Renault are sensible in aligning with Merc for this, and Taffins words confirm this attitude.

Anyway Horners has quit as my previous quote shows so I think sensible people can safely put this to bed

[CookinFlat6]

Interestingly his site also carries a poll as to where there he engines should be unfrozen or not. It's running 48% NO, 41% YES and the rest ambivalent.

I always take polls with a pinch of salt, a good example would this; Who is the better driver, Lewis or Fernando?

If this was posted on a British media source; the overwhelming response would be Lewis; now run the same poll on an Spanish media source, it would be Fernando.

So many polls end up being split down party lines, LH/Merc fans will vote to keep the freeze as it helps maintain their advantage.

EXACTLY!! And, that's why I keep repeating that statistics can/are be manipulated!!

...that's why I keep repeating that statistics can/are be manipulated!!

Polls and statistics are two different things; a statistic is a point of reference based upon results, a poll is simply a statement of opinion, the only stat we can derive from a poll is that x people voted for this, it means very little unless you poll everyone in the region. Not to say statistics can not be manipulated, we just have to look at our political systems to realize that, stats can be interpreted differently to show a very different view, but raw stats, e.g. actual numbers tell the real story.

Agreed!! Just wanted to offer two more pieces to complete the puzzle:

1. Many people use the two terms interchangeably to emphasize the "truth" of their comments/statements.

2. The raw statistics are rarely seen by anyone, save those who have commissioned the research.

Is that exactly what you just did, confuse poll and statistic to emphasis the 'truth' about your statement that people manipulate things?

So you are absolutely right that people do this, however with a poll, everyone knows that it is not the end all but merely an indicator when considered within the context as mentioned of geography etc. Statistics on the other hand are based on facts, the facts cannot be changed, the collation of the facts and its presentation can be manipulated as you have shown, but not the underlying facts themselves

And the beaty of F1 is that, unlike politics etc - the facts are plentiful and readily available to everyone on race day - enought to make sound judgements of what happened in the race - for those who watch the race

[sagi58]

Is that exactly what you just did, confuse poll and statistic to emphasis the 'truth' about your statement that people manipulate things?

Nope!!

[racechick]

The main point of my post wasn't the poll, that was a side issue, just a point of interest. The main point was to shed some more light on the engine situation.

[sagi58]

Yet another reference to the smaller teams not wanting/being able to afford these hybrids:

, Theo Leggett wrote:">Why is Formula 1 in crisis?

....Under pressure from manufacturers who want racing technology to be relevant to the road cars they build, F1 introduced new hybrid engines this year featuring powerful electric batteries and energy recovery systems.

In technology terms it was a huge leap forward. Grand prix cars now use a third less fuel than they did last year.

But it also pushed up costs dramatically.

Teams that had been paying $10m a year for their engines suddenly had to find up to $25m....

[sagi58]

Something to chew on...

Some F1 teams targeting engine freeze loophole for 2015

The FIA is facing a challenge over Formula 1's engine freeze, as some teams believe there is a loophole in the 2015 regulations that could hand them extra development time.

With attempts to convince Mercedes to relax the freeze rules to allow rivals a mid-season upgrade having failed, Renault and Ferrari are now pondering how best to make up ground over 2015.

One issue that has emerged in recent technical meetings with the FIA is that there is no date specified in the regulations for when 2015 engines must be homologated.

Although it is widely believed that the new upgraded power units have to be lodged with the FIA for the first race of the season, some teams believe that the way is open for them to not homologate their engine until later in the year.

Such a delay could prove valuable in allowing longer development time to make further improvements.

The matter was brought up by Ferrari technical director James Allison in recent technical meetings with the FIA in Abu Dhabi, but the governing body argued that although no date for homologation is set, other clauses in the engine regulations make it clear what can be done.

ONE ENGINE TYPE PER SEASON

In particular, paragraph 2 of Appendix 4 of the F1 Sporting Regulations relating to engine homologation states: "A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit."

The FIA argues that the clause prevents manufacturers from running two types of engine in one season, making a late homologation impossible.

However, teams argue that a manufacturer would still only be homologating a 2015 engine, as any running earlier in the season would be done with its 2014 unit.

One high level source at a team said Ferrari was not alone in questioning the rules.

"There is no specified date to homologate the engine, so in theory you could wait a few races before doing it," said the source.

"That would allow some valuable development time, but equally would mean starting the year with a slower 2014 engine."

DISCUSSIONS ONGOING

Although the FIA has expressed its opinion, the door is open for teams to ultimately challenge the matter with race stewards at the Australian Grand Prix if they wanted.

An FIA spokesman made it clear, however, that the governing body hoped to have the matter resolved well before the first race.

"Our position, as stated very clearly in the meeting [in Abu Dhabi], is you can only have one type of homologated engine per year," he said.

"So whatever you turn up with in Melbourne is your homologated engine.

"It was always envisaged, although not explicitly stated in the rules, that manufacturers would have to deal with modifications on the engine within the constraints of the rules, and then submit their 2015 engine [at the first race].

"It is simple, but when you read it [the rule book], it doesn't say that unfortunately.

"However, you have paragraph 2 of Appendix 4 and countless meetings beforehand where it was made clear.

"The matter still needs discussing, but we will get it sorted it out before Melbourne."

Honda, as a new F1 manufacturer, has been told that its 2015 engine must be homologated by February 28 next year rather than for the start of the season.

[Hammer278]

How about chewing on some of this:

Williams: Our 2014 proves costs are not restrictive


Williams thinks its success in 2014 is the perfect answer to those saying the cost of F1 prevents smaller teams from competing at a higher level.

Williams is a member of the Strategy Group which voted against the budget cap at the start of the year, a decision which was partly blamed for the demise of Caterham and Marussia. The plight of those two teams prompted Force India, Sauber and Lotus to lead a charge against the high costs and unequal revenue sharing in the sport, though a resolution is yet to be found on the issue.

Team principal Claire Williams believes her team, which finished third in the constructors' championship and above Ferrari for the first time since 1997, is proof a smaller budget is not completely restrictive.

"For us, from where we were last season, it's such an amazing achievement against the likes of Ferrari which is operating on a budget twice the size of ours," Williams said. "That's such an achievement and, for me, that says everything that we need to say around all of the conversations going on at the moment."

When asked about the demands of the three teams related to cost control, Williams said: "Formula One is what it is. We've been in this sport long enough to know that."

McLaren has switched to Honda power for the 2015 campaign, with Ron Dennis saying it is impossible for a customer team to challenge for a championship. But Williams disagrees with that assessment and thinks her team is a historical example of why that is not the case.

"We have a great engine supplier in Mercedes and we're lucky to have a great relationship with them. At the moment that works but if an engine manufacturer came in and talked to us, why wouldn't you have that conversation? Of course you would. But I know there have been comments in the press recently saying you can't survive unless you've got that backing, it's totally not correct. We've survived for many years - in fact for all our time in Formula One - without having an engine manufacturer solely looking after us and there's no reason we can't continue to do that."

____________________________________________

If a privateer is saying the costs are no problem and were able to achieve 3rd place in the WCC, it just means the other richer teams behind them are whining idiots who don't understand the business well enough. That doesn't make it the sports problem.

I'd think the pinnacle of motor racing deserves the best minds and the best technology. If a couple of teams out there have dumb people running it and funded by past glory, I'd suggest for them to leave...and make way for smarter teams, privateers or other manufacturers. Toyota/BMW/Audi are candidates who could follow Mercs example.

[CookinFlat6]

Boom, Claire with the slam dunk

F1 has always been about performance on track as well as cutting the right engine deals and sponsors and drivers. In the eighties you had a Honda engine deal you were ahead, you had a Peugeot you were toast.
No one complained in the past that McLaren had a Honda engine which was best by a mile. Imagine another team staying 'mclaren are stifling competition by having beating us to the Honda deal'

A lot of Williams and Ron's success came from cutting the right deals, selecting the right partners and drivers

If Ferrari and RBR were dumb enough to pick the wrong engine suppliers and Williams were smart enough to identify the best - it's tough cheese
Lotus swapped to Merc and therefore the 2 moaners could have also. Laughable that they wanted to claim they were held back, although of course RBR are no longer making pratts of themselves and look to be fighting hard to come second in 2015, I can't see them beating Willianms tho so maybe that's stifling competition by not allowing losers to win

FI history does tell us the lamest teams can fall by the wayside and leave unless they can justify magic above results, let's see what the private equity funds that will soon own Ferrari do

[myownalias]

If we are talking purely costs, then it's relative, I would suggest that WIlliams have a lot more funding sources that say Force India (who have the Merc engine), Sauber and the now defunct Caterham and Marussia. a €15m price hike for engines is significant. If we are talking doing the right deals, then that's straight up business savvy, I'm sure that if the FIA allowed it, all teams apart from Ferrari would have gone with Mercedes this season.

[CookinFlat6]

If we are talking purely costs, then it's relative, I would suggest that WIlliams have a lot more funding sources that say Force India (who have the Merc engine), Sauber and the now defunct Caterham and Marussia. a €15m price hike for engines is significant. If we are talking doing the right deals, then that's straight up business savvy, I'm sure that if the FIA allowed it, all teams apart from Ferrari would have gone with Mercedes this season.

I think though, that Claires point - rightly so, is that they are a sustainable business. They have a business model that allows them to function as an independent entity year in year out despite buying Hybrid engines. The teams at the lower end DO NOT have such a model, neither do Ferrari or RBR or even Merc - who are all dependent on a fizzy drinks parent or a monster car maker parent or some magic and history. Williams are an independent outfit that pretty much run without extraordinary funding requirments. They spend what they get from the sport and from their associated and intertwinned engineering business - not rich bilionaire, or tshirt maker funding their losses each year

You could go out and buy some equity in Williams, just dont expect to get dividends anytime soon or to double your money. In fact expect it to be a labour of love

[CookinFlat6]

its a shame the other teams spent so much energy on the aborted attempt to change the rules to help them, instead of concentrating on preparing for 2015.
Seems we are gonna have a much much more one sided affair next season. And that Ferrari and especially Red Bull will face the bullet they dodged last year - at the back, behind all Merc teams and Mclaren. So fighting for 6th and 7th with only STR and Sauber behind them

Mercedes says turmoil at its rivals has left it less worried about being able to defend its Formula 1 world championship success in the 2015 season.

With Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren all undergoing major restructures in their bids to get back to the front, Mercedes is making the most of staff stability to try to make improvements to its W05.

While not taking it for granted that the opposition will remain behind, leading Mercedes personnel say events elsewhere make things more comfortable at Brackley.

Speaking after picking up the Racing Car of the Year trophy at the AUTOSPORT Awards, Mercedes' chief designer John Owen said: "Our rivals seem to have sacked half their companies - so I think they are in a bit of a difficult situation.

"If they had remained stable and got their heads together, rather than criticising themselves and maybe the sport, I think we would be more worried than we are."

ooh la la in lalaland

[Hammer278]

Haha you beat ^ me to it....what a b!tchslap by Mercedes.

[What's Burning?]

Maybe Ferrari and Renaukt didn't whine hard enough? If Honda's engine is anywhere near where the Mercedes engine was this year, Ferrari will be making engines only for themselves and Haas in 2016.

[CookinFlat6]

The Haas deal was cut with MnM, very likely that could change. Unless Ferrari get 3 customers paying the full price they might as well not bother with any customers and buy engines themselves. After the IPO they will not be allwoed to keep making engines purely for nostalgic reasons

[What's Burning?]

After the IPO, a nearly half billion dollar a year annual budget to come in 4th place is going to be difficult to justify to the stockholder board.