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[What's Burning?]

probably on his way out soon after being a failed experiment with Ferrari.

I think your statement could be taken as inflammatory by Alonso's fans as he clearly was not the reason the "experiment" failed.

[CookinFlat6]

I'm confused, so are you saying Hamilton is incapable of learning? Or improving? You kep talking about The Fonz becoming "stronger and more focused because of 2007, what about Hamilton? It was his ROOKIE year, I would think he had more scope for development compared to a halfway weathered double world champion who is now a senior citizen and probably on his way out soon after being a failed experiment with Ferrari.

I think we have to accept that although Alonso is the best driver ever, having been outdriven and beaten by a rookie by less than the amount Nico got beat by Lewis 7 years later. The only area Alonso needs to work on is the completeness - F1 is not only about speed, where Alonso has been untouchable since 2007 - its also about picking the right teams and the right deals, knowing when to take a car with potential over a fat pay check. Knowing how to wrap the team around you, having your bosses singing your praise, knowing when to leave a basket case team that cant win anything,

Unfortunately, until Alonso masters these other areas the fact that he is the best driver ever (apart from 2007) will not translate into multiple WDCS, and these are what people are gonna point to in years to come when weighed up with the various gates that result when he tries to be 'complete'. Its outgrageous that Alonso should have 2 WDCS to Sebs 4, especially as Seb now has lots of years to find another 2 sec car to add to his, and ofcourse Lewis already has his for the next 3 years at least

Unfortunately Alonso genius in being able to take the 6th best car to 4th place may not earn the respect of the lesser drivers who can take the best car and lap their teammates. In fact if Alonso doesnt make good at McLaren then his reputation could disappear from the history books faster than a matador who has just realised that someone forgot to drug the bull

[overboost]

Alonso is recognized as driving as well or better than he ever has after the way he persevered with the ill handling and under powered Ferrari with a wdc teammate far adrift. He also would have learned from his 2007 experience to become a stronger minded and more focused driver.

Compare to Hamilton who had difficulty dispatching good driver Rosberg even though he was driving a car he says he was totally comfortable in and "the best he has ever driven". He had issues in qually all season as well which is something that wasn't there earlier in his career.

Alonso imo would be too much for Lewis to handle.

I'm confused, so are you saying Hamilton is incapable of learning? Or improving? You kep talking about The Fonz becoming "stronger and more focused because of 2007, what about Hamilton? It was his ROOKIE year, I would think he had more scope for development compared to a halfway weathered double world champion who is now a senior citizen and probably on his way out soon after being a failed experiment with Ferrari.

Of course Hamilton can/has learned. But the sum total was that in a perfect car in 2014 it took him to the end of the season to beat an ok driver like Nico.

[CookinFlat6]

It took Alonso till the last race to get beaten by the rookie Petrov in the WDC

[zurich_allan]

Like I detailed in my previous post, back in 2007 Lewis was faster in quali and in races, Alonso was only better and faster by when he exploited his superior setup, tyre and race management. And since then lewis has mastered those areas.

Therefore I feel confident to stake the claim that Lewis would out qualify Alonso consistently and would stay ahead of him in those races on balance

leading to my claim that still stands - Lewis would have an easier time against Alonso in a 3 sec Merc next year thats more reliable and with an even bigger margin to the rest. In fact I went as far as saying Lewis would do to him near what Alonso did to Kimi.

barring luck, Lewis would win pole to flag 60% of the races, Alonso would win the ones he started on pole, say maybe 20% of the races, the other 20% would be when one or the other starts from mid grid etc by grid drop or drops at the start or other issue, then we could split those, leaving Alonso battered 30-70 of Mercs wins

Since you are using 2007 as a guide to a present day comparison:

Back in 2007 it was 10-7 for Alonso in the races and using the present day points system Alonso beats Hamilton 266 to 265.

As well Hamilton in 2014 barely prevailed over Nico Rosberg who is ok but not a top tier driver. Taking on top in F1 Alonso now at the peak of his powers would not go so well for Hamilton imo.

Back in 2007 Hamilton was a rookie. And even with the 10-7, the fact remains that he BEAT Alonso that year. Before the[b] Hungary debacle (where the blackmailer Spaniard struck with his politics)[/b] Hamilton had a comfortable lead over him anyway.

Nico the not so top tier driver smashed Schumacher 2 years running and sent him back to retirement.

Alonso is now at the 'peak of his powers' at the age of 30+ and Hamilton should now be what...worse than his rookie year?

You surely can't do better, so no surprise here.

Actually at Hungary 2007 I recall it was Hamilton disobeying team orders leading to Alonso's retaliating. Lucky for Hamilton in a way because the resulting penalty cost Alonso the championship and allowed Lewis to 'beat' Alonso but also unlucky as the extra points Raikkonen picked up for finishing ahead of Alonso cost both Hamilton and Alonso the championship all things being equal.

Well it was three years running that Rosberg smashed Schumacher and ended his comeback. But imo and in that of many others it was mainly due to the passing of time and Schumachers legendary skills fading rather than Rosberg talents. Even Schumacher seemed to agree naming Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen as the top tier of F1 when asked in 2013.

http://www.grandprix247.com/2013/07/27/ ... f-his-own/

Alonso is recognized as driving as well or better than he ever has after the way he persevered with the ill handling and under powered Ferrari with a wdc teammate far adrift. He also would have learned from his 2007 experience to become a stronger minded and more focused driver.

Compare to Hamilton who had difficulty dispatching good driver Rosberg even though he was driving a car he says he was totally comfortable in and "the best he has ever driven". He had issues in qually all season as well which is something that wasn't there earlier in his career.

Alonso imo would be too much for Lewis to handle.

I'm sorry, but you absolutely cannot say that it was purely the Hungary issue that allowed Hamilton to finish in front of the standings. What about earlier in the season at Monaco in 2007? It was inarguably clear that Hamilton was substantially faster than Alonso, and was only kept behind due to team orders. Go back and watch it.

Am I saying that had Hamilton been allowed to go for it he would have won the WDC? No. What I AM saying is that lots of things happen in every session of every race weekend, whether it's being held up by a backmarker, having a minor reliability issue, a setup problem..... Or a team orders issue. Over the course of an entire season these things tend to balance out with the right result. This IS what happened in 2007.

[Hammer278]

probably on his way out soon after being a failed experiment with Ferrari.

I think your statement could be taken as inflammatory by Alonso's fans as he clearly was not the reason the "experiment" failed.

In the end its the complete package. Who knows, if Alonso knew how to get past a Renault driven by a rookie in Abu Dhabi it might have changed the complexion of the game - momentum on Ferrari's side to push harder, so on and so forth. Fact is, hiring Alonso was a failed experiment....whether the blame lies more on the team or not.

[CookinFlat6]

I'm sorry, but you absolutely cannot say that it was purely the Hungary issue that allowed Hamilton to finish in front of the standings. What about earlier in the season at Monaco in 2007? It was inarguably clear that Hamilton was substantially faster than Alonso, and was only kept behind due to team orders. Go back and watch it.

Am I saying that had Hamilton been allowed to go for it he would have won the WDC? No. What I AM saying is that lots of things happen in every session of every race weekend, whether it's being held up by a backmarker, having a minor reliability issue, a setup problem..... Or a team orders issue. Over the course of an entire season these things tend to balance out with the right result. This IS what happened in 2007.

Excellent post Zurich, advanced level of reasoning backed by pertinent facts and even a reminder that hindsight does not have to be blind. We need more posts like this please

[overboost]

Actually at Hungary 2007 I recall it was Hamilton disobeying team orders leading to Alonso retaliating. Lucky for Hamilton in a way because the resulting penalty cost Alonso the championship and allowed Lewis to 'beat' Alonso but also unlucky as the extra points Raikkonen picked up for finishing ahead of Alonso cost both Hamilton and Alonso the championship all things being equal.

Well it was three years running that Rosberg smashed Schumacher and ended his comeback. But imo and in that of many others it was mainly due to the passing of time and Schumachers legendary skills fading rather than Rosberg talents. Even Schumacher seemed to agree naming Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen as the top tier of F1 when asked in 2013.

http://www.grandprix247.com/2013/07/27/ ... f-his-own/

Alonso is recognized as driving as well or better than he ever has after the way he persevered with the ill handling and under powered Ferrari with a wdc teammate far adrift. He also would have learned from his 2007 experience to become a stronger minded and more focused driver.

Compare to Hamilton who had difficulty dispatching good driver Rosberg even though he was driving a car he says he was totally comfortable in and "the best he has ever driven". He had issues in qually all season as well which is something that wasn't there earlier in his career.

Alonso imo would be too much for Lewis to handle.

I'm sorry, but you absolutely cannot say that it was purely the Hungary issue that allowed Hamilton to finish in front of the standings. What about earlier in the season at Monaco in 2007? It was inarguably clear that Hamilton was substantially faster than Alonso, and was only kept behind due to team orders. Go back and watch it.

Am I saying that had Hamilton been allowed to go for it he would have won the WDC? No. What I AM saying is that lots of things happen in every session of every race weekend, whether it's being held up by a backmarker, having a minor reliability issue, a setup problem..... Or a team orders issue. Over the course of an entire season these things tend to balance out with the right result. This IS what happened in 2007.

You are right zurich and that is why I said all things being equal. Alonso for example was faster in Indianapolis and an order in favour of the 2xwdc over the rookie would have been appropriate and also avoided an ugly fist waving display.

Many things could have happened to provide the wdc to either Alonso or Hamilton and yes things sometimes do balance out with the right result, a just result. The 2007 season was one of those years with the wdc going to the most worthy driver, Kimi Raikkonen.

[Hammer278]

You got me htere Boosty. I was glad Kimi got that WDC since it would've been sacrilege for him to not have won a Championship after his stellar years in McLaren. Even if he's driving like a dead duck nowadays.

[overboost]

You got me there Boosty. I was glad Kimi got that WDC since it would've been sacrilege for him to not have won a Championship after his stellar years in McLaren. Even if he's driving like a dead duck nowadays.